Why else would they want to add fuel to the fires already burning down here ?

If the Sheriff's department has more work, good for them. We are protected by our local State Police force.

Why would a store, in the middle of nowhere, be of interest to Mr. Donaldson ?

There is already a hugh, empty building, on the lot. It can not add to any more pollution, than presently exists.

All that KingstonUlster wants to do is add more welfare clients to the Town of Wawarsing.

I was at the Kingston Government Building, where I and some others watched Walmart's minor-league farm team make their presentation to the Ulster County Planning Board, followed by perceptive questions from an ACTIVE, no-BS Board, and then I and others responded to the Walmart claims, clearly burying most of them, and then the Planning Department staff made their recommendations (which the PB passed unanimously, with the Wawarsing rep abstaining, as appropriate), which basically rejected Walmart's claims of proposal completeness and no-need-for-an-EIS and then tore them about ten new ones!

They will put the Wawarsing PB on notice that they'd better not let this one slide:
- a pos dec was called for (as we requested);
- an economic impact analysis (MORE than I had expected! But what I asked the TOWN to do two years ago!);
- a crime analysis (Mr. Rudikoff's list of stats and impacts to local police and courts must have triggered that);
- community services impact analysis (the idea of the head of the UCPD himself!)
- a revised traffic report (clearly deficient on several counts)
- compliance with nearly every doable requirement in the NEW Zoning Code and Comp Plan (a rejection of the Town Board's sneaky resolution to "grandfather" WM to the old code!)
- some serious restrictions and extra improvements beyond the Walmart compromises made with locals (like walkways, turning lanes, lighting).

The WM team were not happy campers when they quickly packed and left the room.

For those of us who wanted the UCPB to show the WPB how to do this right, and set sensible and prudent guidelines and procedures, things couldn't have gone better if *I* had written the script myself! The ball is now in the WPB's court, or will be when they get the official letter.

If you drive 209, you will see turning lanes (that were installed about 1990)and plenty of lighting. Walkways from the hamlet of Napanoch are installed to the firehouse. Addition walkways could be installed from the senior center to the complex, but who is there to walk ?

It is people like you that try to influence everything that goes on in this area. You do have some good points, but you shouldn't try to force issues.

There are a few people that insist on speaking for the good of all.

Why don't you do everyone a favor and stay home and read a book ?

WalMart can only make the obsolete eyesore better.

Walmart security can't address criminal issues to conclusion.

IF you had been paying attention, Joel, you would have read my many examples of increased crime at Walmarts, both inside and outside the store. Walmart only cares about the inside crime: shoplifting, bad checks, "union organizing"... oh, right that's not a crime, but they spend more money on fighting THAT than on any OUTSIDE security to protect shoppers once they LEAVE the store.

They aggressively pursue 15-year-old pranksters who lift a cd on a dare, but won't put security cameras in the parking lot (unless there was a rumor of union activity; then, they'll spend millions per store to fight it!), or have a guard circle the lot in a golf cart (known to reduce crime), or even prevent RVs from staying overnight.

As I pointed out, once you leave the store, they don't really care. Rape, kidnapping, murder, mugging, theft, shootings... all these happen far more at Walmarts than other stores; and suggesting that the crime is small-time only shows you failed to study the material I posted.

I've pointed to studies and stats that show that crime in an area can go from 4 calls per month, to 4 calls PER DAY. With all that involves, including more load on the courts.

In Napanoch, as I've said, reciprocal agreements mean that in addition to troopers and sheriffs being the ones to deal with this increase in coverage, even EPD cops will find themselves called in many times.

---

Perps don't go right from WM to State Prison! Town Court for indictment, holding in Kingston (or bail), trial in Town Court or maybe county court, sentence to any number of prisons that may or may not include Eastern. But it sounds witty. Not.

---

Who says I don't get "it"? You seem to be prejudiced without really knowing me. Just because things are bad, doesn't mean WM CAN'T make it worse (I leave it to you to label the fallacy you employed there). It can. To be CERTAIN about the true impact, we have to have a CRIME ANALYSIS, and thanks to the UCPB recommendations, it looks like we'll get one.

---

Sorry, but it IS the county's business; the store would be on a major county road, and increased services impact the county budget, too. The county has Planning guidelines and rules that apply to town planning.

Donaldson doesn't represent the town of Ulster; he's chair of the whole legislature. Sales tax from an Ulster OR Napanoch store goes to the same county fund.

The only way to find if there is more negative impact of various types is to have a positive declaration leading to a scoping session to determine WHAT questions NEED to be addressed in an Environmental Impact Study, which CAN include economic, crime, social, architectural, historical, community services, health, and any other relevant factors, as well as "pollution" or other strictly "ecological" concerns. YOUR mere belief is not enough to go on.

It has nothing to do with "more welfare clients"! How does a new WM do that, other than become a MAGNET for poorer shoppers (or create welfare clients; Walmart TEACHES employees how to go to the social services to apply for welfare and food stamps!)? Ooops, that's another argument that would do the opposite of what you want!

Jobs? Haven't you been paying attention? Besides the 50% to 200% annual turnover rate for low-paying, low-or-no-benefit jobs, by a company practicing discrimination, non-payment of wages, locking in workers, and other abuses, the main point I keep bringing up is that the average WM DESTROYS THREE existing local retail jobs in the county for each TWO it "creates" (actually, displaces; other than the managers it imports from afar, or cannibalized workers from the surrounding WMs, most workers will wind up coming from closed or downsized existing stores.)!

I speak for myself and also for WERD (my personal opinions are more extreme than WERD's, as WERD represents a broader coalition of views). But MY speech is informed by research, experience, and logic. Take it or leave it.

Everyone here has a RIGHT to "influence" what goes on here! WHO ELSE should do it? The OUTSIDE interests who have ONLY their personal or corporate agenda to promote? Why turn over OUR economic and political destiny to others, particularly those who have no interest in US except to exploit us and take our money?

How am I "forcing" anything?!!! I have no official power! All I can do is study, SHOW UP, and speak up! So could YOU, if you weren't so afraid to identify yourself!

If my words influence anything, the decision still must made by those who HAVE the authority to decide. THEY decide "for the good of all" don't they? How do they dare do that? Oh, right, we elected them or they were appointed by those we elected! Who are they supposed to listen to? Well, anyone who takes the time to SPEAK to them!

Nothing precludes me from staying home at times and reading a book (I'm in the middle of at least four right now!) AND going out and helping our officials make good decisions. YOU could do that too, if you had something of value to say, and took the effort to say it!

Walmart is NOT the only solution to how to improve the Napanoch Mall! In fact, it's one of the worst "solutions"! (You are trying to bull us with the false dichotomy fallacy, that is, only two options... "it's MY way or nothing!")

Stop whining about ME, and do your duty as a citizen; if you think you have something better to say, get involved where it counts.

If WM doesn't come (now seeming more likely a possibility!) it will be because WALMART decides not to pursue their plans. Poor li'l ol' me has no power over Gazillion Dollar Wally World!

How many of the stores that you frequent in the village or area provide you with outside security when you leave their establishment?

Are the turnover rates any different for local businesses paying minimum wages?

Please let us know.

1) Is creating another job for another Rookie ST.

2) We will acually get alittle patrolling in town.

Just another example of you twisting something to make it what you want.

Turnover rates? Walmart is notorious compared to comparable stores. Go look it up. Local rates? It's your irrelevant strawman, you feed him.

---

The troopers won't be "patrolling" Napanoch hamlet more, as that's not their job; they will come when called only, and more likely shift the call to a more rapid response by EPD.

---

Who says I'm being paranoid. I'd just like to know what THEY mean, not what YOU think they "probably" mean.

I don't have a business, and I'm not running for anything, so HOW would they "remember" me if I can't be boycotted or voted against? See what I mean?

I'm twisting nothing; I'm asking the person IF they made a threat. They can answer for themselves, I'm sure, and how it applies to ME would be interesting, because *I* can't think of any way that "remembering" me can be expressed in a way that makes sense, as would "remembering" a business by not patronizing their shop (which threat to boycott is still a threat, BTW! Or don't you agree? Or are YOU trying to twist what a "threat" is? Good luck with changing the English language.)

---

President Calvin Coolidge was known for being very stingy with his words. A man went up to him and said, "I bet a friend $5 I could get you to say more than three words."

"You lose," said Silent Cal!

Calling me names doesn't make it so. We know you hate me for some unknown reason. Please grow up.

But please explain how this "remembering" gets EXPRESSED! Just holding a grudge? OK. But what does a person with a grudge DO? If nothing, then what's the point, other than giving oneself acid indigestion?

I can understand how someone "remembers" a store owner, and stops shopping there, but how do you apply it TO ME, as I have no shop? Give an example, would you?

As for desperation, nope, none here! (The internet mind-reading is getting soooo old, dontcha think?)

As Mark Twain said, "I have the confidence of a Christian...

Stop tounge tying shit would ya.

I ASKED if it was a threat.

Congratulations. You won.

This just means the town Planning Board has more pressure on it to issue a pos dec, and include more areas of inquiry. The PB may choose to over-ride these recommendations even though labeled "mandatory" but they'd have to go through hoops to justify it.

I can only guess you are talking about kids walking from Ellenville to Napanoch or from Wawarsing to Napanoch.

It should not be up to Walmart to put sidewalks from Ellenville or Wawarsing to Napanoch. Lets get a bit real here.

Nobody is suggesting your over-the-top, false dichotomy strawman.

Walmart results in a NET LOSS of jobs over time; there are better ways to build a dynamic, sustainable, self-reliant local economy.

Art is not THE answer, but artists are often the spark that renovates and motivates an otherwise moribund area... think Tribeca or SoHo.

It's not either-or!

---

5:46,

Unless YOU were the author of the original post I referenced, YOU don't know what that person was thinking or meant, do you? Are you that person's appointed representative?

I prefer to hear from the original poster, to let him explain what "Make sure we all remember these people" means IN CONTEXT. I don't think it means "remember" the same way one remembers a FACT, like "In Fourteen Hundred and Ninety Two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue"! You don't DO anything with remembering THAT line except to answer a question on Jeopardy!

But when someone says to "remember" certain persons and businesses, "especially if WM won't come in because of them," there seems to be a SUGGESTION of something more than keep that "memory" tucked in the frontal lobes for a pop quiz.

I'd like to hear from the author at 6:5, March 5th, HIMSELF, with a more detailed explanation of how we are to interpret and understand the wording IN CONTEXT.

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9:55,

I didn't SAY "According to Steve,PROMISE to remember the names of the people involved in stopping Wal-Mart from coming to Wawarsing is THREAT"!

(I've already said that when someone begins with "According to..." it's usually a false, strawman version, and this is the case here.)

I ASKED, "You wouldn't be making THREATS now, would you, 6:5?"

I'm still waiting for 6:5 to answer that, and explain what he meant in a way that could be construed as something other THAN a threat. Are YOU 6:5? Again, the word "promise" isn't mentioned by 6:5 or me, so you are just making up more stuff.

---

Jim,

I don't know how or why someone from Virginia is chiming in on this local matter, but it sounds as if you've memorized the standard WM PR talking points "real good."

So let me briefly try to dissuade you of your assumptions.

The people of Napanoch and surrounding area should be CONCERNED when ANY large corporation wants to move in. IF they are a factory, well, that certainly suggests NEW jobs and no DISPLACEMENT of existing jobs; but Walmart isn't a factory, but, rather, another STORE, and it DISPLACES JOBS at the rate of THREE existing local jobs lost for each TWO jobs is "brings," as you say.

(See, Walmath only counts jobs in one direction, never the jobs LOST due to its coming!) And, in truth, it does BRING some jobs, as the management will be BROUGHT from outside, as will many workers who already work at outlying WMs, so the number of NEW LOCAL jobs will be less than advertised. And since many will be displaced from EXISTING local jobs, now at less pay and benefits, perhaps, how is that a good thing? As the turnover rate is 50% annually on average, and up to 100%-200% in some stores, particularly new ones, how will this help the community?

If dozens of local businesses close, which is the norm, and hundreds of local jobs are destroyed, if crime goes up, property values go down, tax base shrinks, taxes go up, choices are reduced... how does THAT help the community? See, I have studies that support my claims, but you just have your unsupported opinion.

But getting back to even a factory, look at the debate going on in Mamakating over the proposed mushroom plant; size, smell, water usage and pollution, traffic, etc., are all concerns that the community has to address, as a TRADE OFF for the promise of jobs. Similar concerns were raised when a meat rendering plant was considered here. And look at Hydro, which took over VAW, made a lot of "we're good neighbors" noise, and then left lickety-split when their bottom line told them to move, and left us with an empty shell of a plant.

Corporations have THEIR reasons for coming, and when they are OUTSIDERS, they rarely have our best interests primarily in mind, but, rather, how THEY can exploit US -- OUR money, OUR labor, OUR tax incentives, OUR roads, etc. -- at minimum cost and maximum profit to THEM. I don't see why we should be "lucky" to be exploited if we GET less than we LOSE!

All we ask, and all that ANY community should ask, is that the developer PROVE that the potential negative impacts don't outweigh the positive impacts, or else why should any community allow someone -- anyone -- to come in to make a place WORSE? That is all best determined through the review process, including the SEQRA process, and that is best done with a proper Environmental Impact Statement, paid for by the developer, but done by an INDEPENDENT analyst of the community's choosing.

I've already shown how unlikely it is that those who shop in WM will then spend MORE money elsewhere, at other local stores, particularly in these times, and as everyone talks about the convenience of one-stop-shopping and cheaper prices at WM. Once you've spent more money than you planned to at WM (which they encourage with various psychological ploys), and spent more time, and the kids are screaming, and you're running late, there's little chance you will go to other stores, particlarly into the VILLAGE of Ellenville, two miles south. It just doesn't make any sense, but sounds like more wishful thinking and denial.

Besides, it's the SAME persons who already LIVE and SHOP in the 12-mile radius around Napanoch! They ALREADY buy gas here now, and shop at Shoprite and Peters NOW! Studies show that the average WM kills off TWO supermarkets, and WE ONLY HAVE TWO! Studies show that 84% of sales at a new WM come from EXISTING local stores!

There's no influx of OUTSIDERS, since beyond the 12-mile circle there's ANOTHER, closer Walmart AND more regional shopping center choices that make more sense to go to; if you live in Stone Ridge, it makes more sense to go to Kingston than Napanoch.

And, there's no way that ONE NEW BIG store that needs to make $1-1.5 million PER WEEK, and will get most of that at the EXPENSE of existing local stores, can't but have a major siphoning effect on ALL local businesses, not just those that compete directly. There's very little disposable cash in our small and shrinking economy, so after the first tier of direct competitors is hit (groceries, pharmacies, hardware, dollar stores, florists, opticians, auto supplies, nail-hair salons, etc.), the second tier that depends on THEM (newspapers, printers, restaurants, insurance, lawyers, etc.) get hit, and then this cascades through the whole local economy, like a cinder block dropped on a chessboard.

Walmart doesn't believe in "competition," little or otherwise. They are major predators with deep pockets and they will underprice, outlast, and outmaneuver anyone in their way to achieve market dominance. This is the pattern hundreds of small communities have discovered too late. Walmart managers used to drive around the downtown of new areas they were moving into and go "Six months... three months... six months..." pointing to local stores and how long they'd last after WM opened. The morning chant would be, "Price em low, stack em high, make those downtown merchants cry!" Yes, they often move into growing areas that can support new businesses. (They don't necessarily BRING new businesses, any more than than the crowing rooster MAKES the sun rise; these growth patterns are going on IN SPITE of WM, and WM usually takes advantage of it. This isn't the case in Wawarsing.)

Wake up! This is NOT progress or "moving forward"! It's moving BACK into neo-colonial neo-serfdom, combining the worst of the "company store" days and monopolies like Standard Oil or the British East India Company that can bully everyone as they please, REDUCING local self-sufficiency and control of OUR OWN economic destiny.

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9:46,

The UCPB is NOT "some politicians in Kingston"! They are made up of members of planning boards from EACH of the county's towns! They, and the professional staff at the UC Planning Dept, have spent years coming up with guidelines that try to minimize the harm that irresponsible development can cause. NO legitimate and proper business need fear an appropriate review of their proposal, and of following the LAW and guidelines designed to protect the public.

I don't know what they think, other than they sincerely believe they have a job to do, and that is to protect the public from poorly-planned and poorly-thought-out projects.

*I* think that many of YOU, particularly the lock-step "Walmart is great" crowd, are ill-informed, and let wishful thinking and denial replace objective analysis and looking beyond your own desires, to consider the general community welfare and our shared future. Just claiming it will "be such a positive impact" without any proof is hardly an opinion worth acting on, and to suggest "we should not delay construction any longer" without following prudent, legal, comprehensive study is just inviting trouble down the road.

How many times do we look at something built 20 or 30 years ago and ask, "What were THEY thinking?" Well, likely the developer and their lawyers and engineers said only glowing things about it, and the review board, if any, didn't ask tough questions, but just swallowed glowing promises and visions ONLY from those who stood to benefit! We should be smarter than that!

It wasn't "luck" that made WM want to build here, only two years after they said they DIDN'T want to! It's THEIR overall agenda to fill in holes on their map, and Napanoch is a hole in a 30-mile-radius donut! They don't care if they make a big profit there (they won't and can't), or even cannibalize their own other stores; the point is to SATURATE the market with their brand, and prevent competitors from getting a toe-hold! WE are just pawns in THEIR game! We are just some yokels to be fleeced and treated like idiots, as you might have said.

Do you know they don't even OWN the property yet? They're no idiots! They know that if the process becomes too onerous, or the economy keeps flopping, or their shareholders do as they did in 2007 and tell them to STOP mindless expansion where it makes NO SENSE (which suggests that the delay in the Napanoch proposal from 2007 to 2008 was that IT would be at the top of any list to hold off on, as it would be among the least profitable stores planned!), they could pull out and leave Tso holding the bag! They haven't put a stick in the ground, so they could stop construction very easily before it starts. Would you want them to begin and then eight months later leave an abandoned shell? That has happened elsewhere! And WM owns 30 million s.f. of EMPTY OLD WMs that they just left empty and moved away, leaving the community to deal with the rotting hulks.

Have *I* noticed what's happened? Hey, *I* predicted all this back in my columns in *2007*!!!

(http:(slash)(slash)journal.kryolux.us columns 13-16)

Go back to my first column written as if from the year 2020 (no.15); I CALLED it the Big Crash of 2009, and THAT was written two year ago this spring!

So, I'm not kidding. This is the WRONG time and WRONG place to build MORE NEW retail, at a time when malls are emptying and we are OVER-saturated with more retail property than we can deal with. Oh, and the commercial and retail crisis that began late last year is coming to a head, as I've been predicting for over a year now, as rents aren't being paid, highly-leveraged loans on commercial properties are coming due and are defaulting at a scale that will make the sub-prime mortgage flap look like a tea party!

See, I've been studying macro-economic conditions for years, and this is just the beginning of a major contraction that actually HAS NO REVERSAL, only a stabilization at some reduced level of activity. Read my columns from the spring of 2007 that explains how Peak Oil will make all things different, and that the Long Emergency we are now entering has NO BOTTOM! Walmart is not going to survive it, as its model is unsustainable and will be unable to adapt to reduced availability of oil and resources, "warehousing on wheels," imports from Asia, and big scale management. Walmart is a dinosaur basking in the last rays of sunlight before the night comes and freezes their cold-blooded hearts.

WM's own brands are notoriously crappy and poorly-made; they fall apart and you have to buy three or four, where ONE quality, used-to-be-made-in-the-USA product would have been a better buy.

Nobody made that strawman claim but YOU!

Why would you say something so obviously wrong and irrelevant?

"...You are a dumbass"

If your claim is based on the belief that *I* made the previous strawman claim, it is invalid, because nobody but YOU made such a bogus statement.

I knew that if I refrained from any but the most mild rhetoric, it wouldn't stop name-calling from the anti-Krulick crowd.

Fortunately, there are readers who have more favorable opinions, and I have permission to post from one recent email sent to me directly:

Your postings are informative and quite witty when needed and sometimes your come backs give me a good fit of laughing which is much needed these days.

I like many, agreed with you maybe 10% at the start of this Walmart deal but have come around to about 90%. See, you do make a difference even if it means dealing with many idiots. My last 10% mostly has to do with what will come of the few stores left, at least they have a bit of hope at this time.

---

"....Almost everything in the village stores is made in china. The products at Napa , Riteaid , the dollar stores , are mostly products of china...."

And your point is?....

Walmart's policies led to this race to the bottom. Once Walmart fled from their "Made in USA" pledge, and started undercutting US manufacturers, others had to copycat to stay alive. So, yes, much of our manufacturing is now gone, and gone to China, or other offshore sweatshop havens.

So? This is certainly bad, agreed. How does supporting Walmart change things for the better?

But as this isn't the only reason WM is bad for us, you are just harping on ONE of many reasons I have pointed out. Since you don't seem able to address those, you conveniently ignore them, but that doesn't make them go away.

"....The poster 6.5 was stating , remember these businesses , so we dont frequent their establishments."

Well, that's your assumption, but that surely is the most logical one. And that makes it a THREAT that, particularly if WM doesn't come, these stores should be boycotted, which suggests that perhaps these businesses should STOP working to make the PB do its job and do a proper review of WM's proposal (I know, this is interpreted, over-enthusiastically, to mean prevent WM from ever opening), or else the "remembering" and thus the boycotting, would be "made to happen."

IF THAT is what YOU are suggesting, then YOU are suggesting that this "remembering" is in order to IMPLY A THREAT of loss of sales, which is STILL A THREAT!

Oh, and as *I* have no store, yet MY name was listed first, HOW would this "remembering" be applied to ME? HOW do those who "remember" not "frequent" MY "establishment"? HOW would you interpret THAT?

See why I have to ASK if this wasn't meant as a THREAT?!!

"Truth be told , most of us dont shop at the 1 or 2 stores in town anyway......"

YOUR OPINION, based on nothing more substantive than your personal say so, is not "truth" unless backed by evidence!

What does "not meant as a THREAT,more as reality" even mean in the CONTEXT and exact wording of the original? Again, here it is: "Its Krulick Peters Image and other Ellenville businesses who pushing Wal-Mart out.Make sure we all remember these people especially if WM won't come in because of them."

MAKE SURE WE ALL REMEMBER THESE PEOPLE!

"MAKE SURE" suggests active intent, not just accepting some "reality." And how do *I* fit into your equation, as *I* have no patrons?!!! What "reality" do I fit under?

I would like to know how much land does
Steve Krulick have, since he seems to think he is
in charge of all of us.

I can tell you if you all let this very rude man control what happens in the ToW I will be forced to sell my land to the highest bidder.(that may be a camp that not pay taxes)
Disipite the fact that my family has has owned that land for more than 50 years.

So you will be without a place to buy clothes and no tax income and this very rude obnoxious Man who thinks he knows what is good for you. You all will suffer.

And town officials today and past who know very little about the history of the ToW. Both who thought they could place signs on private property without permision, Neither had any knowledge
of the history that property or the ToW.

One parked in my drive-way and when I asked if I could help him said "no I am just going to put a sign here"

No hello I am----, can please I put a sign. And then he said he would put the sign on the other side of the road. HELLO I OWED THE LAND ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ROAD.

And the other canidate told me he was checking to see if I owned both sides of RT 55. Because he did not think the state would devide land when the built 55 when the Dam @ Lackawack was built. First of all I lived there since 1950 I know what I own!!!

The road was there long before the city took the valley and the resoures. It was Lackawack road. And we all owned to the middle of the roudout.

You all allow this rude oboxnious man Steve Krulick control what happens in the ToW.

As an owner of more than 100 arces in the ToW I would like to know how much land does this rude oboxnous arogant person own???

Because I can not live with having this
rude oboxnous person,control my life I will have to leave the area where I I
have live since 1946 and my family beore the Civel war. I will be taking my retirerment income with me, that is more than anyone is making today in the ToW.

So I hope Steve Krulick is proud of what he is doing to ToW.

Also I have stated before that Ellenville and the Town of Wawarsing are very unfriendly place. That you all say is not true. So the next time you all walk by me without speaking I will call you on it. That includes my big important relatives, ie Mr Noon day Club.

Ummmmmm, there is a post office right on the other side of the bridge below that road (wawarsing post office)....... how do to the kids that walk to that post office cross 209? Surely there must be kids on both sides of 209 down there...

And you want a side walk from there to What would be Walmart.... Yikes.....

Then lets see, where does the sidewalk in ellenville end........ my guess is about across from dunkin donuts or close to there.. Walmart is suppose to build a sidewalk all that ways too......

Amount of owned land is irrelevant to this issue; one doesn't get one vote per acre, or anything like that. WE gave up the need to even be a property-owner in order to vote long ago. And it never was required to give an opinion. But a name would help, so we know IF you are a PERSON.

Nor do I control anything, nor could I. You really have to put things into some perspective and stick to reality. I suggest you may be over-reacting and using emotionalistic demagoguery instead of reasoned argument.

There are places to buy clothes; the price of a WM isn't worth having THEM be one more place. Any "tax income" they generate (and their scams make sure they bilk us out of every tax dollar they can!) will be offset by the reduction of property values, and the lost taxes from closed businesses. If WM opens, we WILL all suffer.

Your story of the sign is your complaint with some candidates or officials, and has no place here or any bearing on your rant at me, so please address that to those persons. Focus please.

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The only rude obnoxious comments I see are yours.

Since I don't control your life, have no plans to, and no way of doing so, your threat to move makes no sense, as your premise is false. Decide to do as you will, but don't blame me for your life choices, OK?

There's much of what happens in the Town that gives me no sense of pride, though there are other things that do. The reaction and nasty language of some of my so-called "neighbors" here gives me no sense of pride. I am comforted by the kind words of others.

I am only trying to help my community avoid a potential threat of significant negative impact. If I can accomplish that, I will feel I have done what a concerned citizen should do.

Say, the next time YOU walk by ME, why don't YOU say hello first, since I don't know who this is yelling at me? Who sets these rules anyway that YOU have to be "helloed" by US, if it means that much to you?

FORTUNE 500
Current Issue

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, reported unexpectedly strong sales Thursday, a bright spot in an otherwise gloomy retail market. U.S. same-store sales increased 5.1% compared to February 2008, not counting fuel sales. Fortune spoke with ThinkEquity analyst Edward Weller about Wal-Mart's results and the broader retail market. Excerpts:

Why is Wal-Mart (WMT, Fortune 500) doing so well?

It didn't happen overnight. Three or four years ago, they woke up and they realized that a lot of the criticism they were getting was justified...they've been working their tail off to improve their business for the last several years.

They're well known as a price leader and they're working real hard to reinforce the reality of it and tell people about it. But that's something they've always done - they're doing a better job of it. The stores are cleaner, the store personnel are cheerier, the checkouts are faster, the stores are easier to shop because there's less stuff in them. It's a big complex of things that creates momentum like this. It's not luck or just the environment.

What other changes has Wal-Mart made?

Heck, why you are at it, why not have Walmart put up lights around the Rondout Reservoir and sidewalks there to, to get to the store.

(What, magically ALL stores became "cheerier"? How do you measure THAT?!!")

I still hear complaints of sloppy aisles, grumpy staff, sparse shelves. The discrimination, lawsuits, anti-labor activity, and predatory practices continue. "The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

Oh, and Al Capone also made lot's of money by bullying the "competition," so what's the point. Yes, we know that WM can do well in tough times because of the PERCEPTION they save people money, even when objective studies show otherwise.

This refutes NONE of the concerns we have that need to be STUDIED objectively and not simply take the word of WALMART, which is why we need a pos dec and EIS to resolve the questions we have.

---

The "new" Walmart is just MORE spin and smoke. They tried so many PR gambits these past few years that backfired and only made them look silly. Every time they try to reinvent themselves -- hi-fashion forays, rapid expansion, blogs -- they get shot down by stockholders who tell them to stick to fundamentals. But none of this changes their basic business model, or how they impact small communities negatively.

Just CALLING them a "good" company (how do you define GOOD?) doesn't make them so. They are immoral and heartless, but they'll bake you a birthday cake if your kid's name is Adolf Hitler! And not pay out insurance claims, but keep the money for themselves. And make lame excuses when an employee is trampled to death, or someone gets shot in their store.

They are not bad JUST because they are big, but they ARE big and that just makes their BADNESS more BAD!

Reasonable? This farm team (they don't send the all-stars to deal with li'l ol' hick hamlets like Napanoch!), either couldn't confirm things or simply shot down REASONABLE requests that some asked about. The UCPB saw right through them and grilled them, proving they were not-ready-for-prime-time.

They would have made NO changes (minimal and trivial as they are) unless WERD and others were subjecting them to PRESSURE! IF WM opens here, you will be able to thank US if the WM that's built is BETTER than what they were trying to impose! Without OUR concern and pressure, they would give you the least costly, least safe, least integrated-into-the-community box they could get away with! You're welcome!

I have long been a fan of store brands IF they are of comparable quality. I don't buy Reynolds Wrap or ANY aluminum foil; it's a wasteful product that has better alternatives.

I don't TELL you anything about shopping; you are a free agent! But am I not allowed to offer some suggestions on how to save money or get better value?

---

Who ARE the "powers that be"? What IS their thinking? Just making empty claims tells us nothing. So, what about their "thinking" upsets you? How SHOULD they be "thinking" instead?

Do you know what a "strawman" is? How would I be that?

Aren't you concerned that Walmart would lower property values? They have in most other similar situations. How have *I* influenced YOUR property values? (I'd suggest to you that the collapse of the real estate market and economy in general has more to do with THAT!) As for what you can do with it, that's settled case law, in which NOBODY has absolute property rights, and communities have great leeway to regulate and put conditions on usage to protect the public.

---

How is it amazing that property values are going down HERE when they are going down MUCH MORE in the rest of the country? (There are whole neighborhoods in sudden foreclosure or financially "under water"! Average selling home price in Detroit is only $18,000!) Are you blaming local persons for what is a national, nay, GLOBAL meltdown?

Who is claiming to "know better than the rest of us"? That's just a strawman. Cite such a claim here! We are simply asking that prudent study and review be done, as the law and good sense requires. Preventing a BAD thing is justification enough.

Show how WERD has decreased ANYONE's property value! I can, by contrast, show you how WMs have done that!

Nobody is "questioning progress"! (More strawman!) We are questioning WHAT IS PROGRESS in this case! I have shown that Walmart IS NOT PROGRESS, and just calling it so doesn't MAKE it so! Just saying we NEED "it" here doesn't mean we NEED WALMART here; once you define "it" as "shopping options that increase our choices and selection without harming the existing economy and community," then you can see that Walmart isn't the ONLY way to get "it," but is not even a GOOD way to get "it"!

I believe it is time for you to get off the soap box.

There are people who were elected or appointed to watch our backs. The elected officials were elected by the majority and hopefully they will be looking out for the interests of the majority. If they fail in this endeavor they should be tossed out.

If WM makes their presentation to the various boards and fulfill the "required" mandates, that should be the end of the discussion.

Placing unnecessary mandates on any business is not fair. There are already enough hoops to jump through.

As for Route 209....The NYSDoT will deceide what WM has to do under a highway work permit. Ingress and egress will be addressed as well as possible traffic counts to determine if signals are necessary.

For John Adams. Cross walks do not protect people. In most instances people do not pay attention to traffic or think they have lightening speed and can race a vehicle. There really isn't any good location to put a crosswalk at Plank road. Who would be crossing there anyway ?

My wife and I just purchased a home, in Florida. There is a WM about every 7 miles and they are surrounded by hundreds of other businesses. Every one seems to be doing a brisk trade.

Just when I'm getting some traction? Yeah, you'd like that!

"Oh, please Br'er Fox, throw me anywhere but the briar patch!"

FTIY, TTLAY, THFY, TYW! MKG

And do you think all our elected and appointed officials ARE watching our backs? What about when ONE of those officials is ALSO the ATTORNEY representing the property owner who stands to make $5.5 million on this deal?

No, it's the job of CITIZENS like us to WATCH over the shoulders of those folks, to make SURE they watch our backs (and didn't one of them have the slogan "It's not my back or your back but Auer-bach!"? How did THAT work out for us?!!); OUR input is an essential part of the DEMOCRATIC process!

Sorry, but in a REPUBLIC, the rights of the MINORITY must also be protected! The majority has no trouble getting its way, if force and numbers are all you have. And, the majority can be (nay, often is) WRONG. Just being the majority gives no special wisdom; history tends to suggest the opposite. (I've already quoted from my translation of Ibsen's "An Enemy of the People" to amplify this.)

Elected officials are charged with enforcing the Constitution and the LAW, not with the PERCEIVED interests of the majority. That's why we have a constitutional republican democracy, and NOT mob rule! Sure, if the majority is upset, they can vote out those who only did their job as THEY saw fit, and replace them with more compliant types, but that isn't the recipe for good government. I suggest you go back and read my several informative columns on what makes for good and proper representative government! (See links previously posted)

Well, WM presented to the UCPB and that board told WM their presentation was insufficient, incomplete, and needed more INDEPENDENT analysis! The WPB, if it does its job, will come to the same conclusion. That the WPB is under more local pressure might make that a tougher call than the less subjective UCPB members had, but if they can't do their job impartially, then THEY should resign on their own!

A development of over 100K s.f., in a community smaller than 150K, is a Type 1 class project, and strongly recommends a DEIS be required. It would take strange twisting to say it doesn't. The UCPB has issued MANDATORY recommendations, none of which seem "unfair."

The traffic analysis WM provided ONLY covered from Rte 55 (the bridge turnoff) to Plank Road! That's it! Even the casino traffic analysis covered miles in each direction as being necessary to consider the impact!

We aren't Florida. Your situation is, well, Florida oranges to New York apples! Compare the population and growth and you'll see that YOUR area HAD (past tense) the numbers and growth to absorb such sprawl, but we don't. And the "brisk" business, or its potential, is what BROUGHT WM there, not the other way around! Just wait a few months and see how many of those retail properties start bleeding profusely, as stores close, rents aren't paid, foreclosures on too-highly-leveraged loans start popping, jobs vanish, taxes plummet, services falter, municipalities go bankrupt... hey, but the Walmarts will save you all! NOT!

Don't wait. Go now! Just in time for the apocalypse! It WILL hit California, Florida, Nevada before it hits us. As Gracie Allen used to say, she put a big turkey and a small turkey in the oven at the same time; when the small one was burnt, she knew the big one was ready to eat!

I was not demeaning or angry at anyone! I think thou dost protest too much, and were perhaps projecting a bit. I guess *I* cannot win when anonymous persons with animus toward ME see ME being demeaning of persons where no such intent existed!

"The only rude obnoxious comments I see are yours." Another absolutism from steve. *YOU* have posted ,as others, many rude and obnoxious comments.

Exposed again Mr. double standard!

Tell that to the dozens of businesses that will likely close, and the hundreds of employees who will likely lose their jobs IF WM comes.

Taxes up, property values down, crime up, average wages down, poverty up, shopping choices down, traffic up, social capital down... I've shown the stats that point to this roller coaster ride. Cleaner, "cheerier" WMs (assuming you believe a corporate pimping magazine) don't address these local realities, which you conveniently ignore. Along with $1-1.5 million PER WEEK siphoned out of the local economy, as 84% of WMs new sales come from EXISTING LOCAL businesses, which is why THREE existing local retail jobs will be lost for each TWO WM "creates"!

Yeah, like YOU are the typical Fortune reader! And they were real good at giving us the heads up as to where the economy was heading today! Seems I also remember them praising Enron; Fortune Magazine gave Enron its Most Innovative Company in America award in February 2001 for the sixth consecutive year... just before Enron imploded and went bankrupt. So much for "believing" in Fortune!

I've already addressed the "if anyone doesn't like the store you don't have to shop there" side-step. First, all of us living in town have to deal with the negative impacts whether we shop there or not. IF some of my preferred stores are destroyed by this predator, that limits my shopping choices. If crime goes up, we all pay for it. If property values go down, it affects many of us.

If YOU like to shop at WM, you have six to go to in a 30-mile radius; that seems like plenty of choice for YOU. And YOU can always move closer to one of them! Fact is, we've already heard from people who HAVE moved up here to GET AWAY from the Walmartization of where they WERE living! Amazing that an outside company would have more rights than those who already live here!

I've addressed the meaning of "need." Please re-read until it starts to sink in.

Line : 22

Char : 7

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8:17? Nobody here by that name!

Yes, GO Walmart! GO AWAY... FAR AWAY, and leave us alone!

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John,

Check out the actual crime stats regarding Walmarts. (And I don't recall anyone suggesting bikeways or picnic areas per se "cause crime"! Seems you, too, have an abundance of straw to sling!) Walmart is a CRIME MAGNET!

("a quick search of reported cases reveals that Wal-Mart parking lots are a virtual magnet for crime." * Judge L. Starcher, 2001)

Doesn't matter if it's a suburb, city, or rural area... Walmart comes and crime goes up, policing goes up, court load goes up.

"Now, a new study of official police reports proves how serious the issue crime of crime at Wal-Mart stores still is for many towns and cities across America. The shocking new report, titled "Is Your Wal-Mart Safe?" is first national study to analyze official police reports of incidents at 551 Wal-Mart stores, as well as compare rates of criminal-police incidents at Wal-Mart and Target stores.

Among the findings of the "Is Your Wal-Mart Safe" study are:

* Wal-Mart stores analyzed do experience a high rate of criminal-police incidents;
* Based on a sample of "high incident" Wal-Mart stores, Wal-Mart stores experience a much higher rate of reported criminal-police incidents than nearby Target stores;
* National estimates indicate that almost 1 million criminal-police incidents occurred at Wal-Mart stores in 2004 or 2 criminal-police incidents per minute in 2004;
* Wal-Mart could implement roving security patrols at all stores nation-wide at an estimated cost of 4 cents a customer visit."

To save space, I'm enclosing links to two reports; please read them before making erroneous assumptions:

http:(slash)(slash)walmartcrimereport.com(slash)report.pdf

http:(slash)(slash)walmartwatch.com(slash)img(slash)documents(slash)CrimeAtWalMart.pdf

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They may "lower prices," but what is the real cost? YOU foot the bill, so find out!

1. Wal-Mart's prices aren't lower.

* For one month, a newspaper in Arkansas tested the prices of 6 Wal-Marts against other stores. Out of 19 household items, Wal-Mart was cheapest on only 2. The lowest total for all 19 items was $12.91. The highest total for all items? Wal-Mart, at $15.86.

* When Wal-Mart first enters a town, they intentionally undercut the prices of local retailers. Once the local main street has become a ghost town, Wal-Mart's prices start to drift upward.

2. Wal-Mart wastes American tax dollars.

* One half of Wal-Mart's 720,000 U.S. employees qualify for federal assistance under the food stamp program.

* Only 40% of Wal-Mart workers can afford the healthcare plan that Wal-Mart offers. Unless the employee has a spouse with medical benefits, healthcare is usually paid for by the government.

But WE HAVE a police force in the village to deal with problems; there's no Napanoch or Wawarsing police to deal with a 3000% increase (on average) in crime that Walmarts bring!

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I believe this happens in every state.
The reason i searched this is that last week they donated $2000.00 to our local school.
I really don't see many small companies being able to donate so much, to make this a better statement, how many of Ellenville or Napanoch companies are doing as much or even as little for your local donations. Even if you look at dollar per dollar by the company size, what donations are your locals making to the schools andor other establishments in need?

As of February 2009, the total number of Wal-Mart associates in Georgia is 54,236.
The average wage for regular, full-time hourly associates in Georgia is $11.34 per hour (Wal-Mart Discount Stores, Supercenters, and Neighborhood Markets). Additionally, associates are eligible for performance-based bonuses.
In recent years, Wal-Mart has contributed four percent of an associate's eligible pay to their combined Profit Sharing and 401(k) Plan.
Suppliers
In FYE 2008, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc spent $9,562,428,173.00 for merchandise and services with 2,093 suppliers in the state of Georgia. As a result of Wal-Mart's relationship with these suppliers, Wal-Mart supports 104,474 supplier jobs in the state of Georgia.
Supplier figures provided by Dun Bradstreet.
Taxes and Fees
Wal-Mart collected on behalf of the state of Georgia more than $509.2 million in sales taxes in FYE 2008.
Wal-Mart paid more than $55.8 million in state and local taxes in the state of Georgia in FYE 2008.
Community Involvement
In 2007, Wal-Mart Stores and Sam's Club gave $13,063,221.00 in cash and in-kind donations to local causes and organizations in the communities they serve in the state of Georgia. Through additional funds raised through stores and Clubs throughout the state, Wal-Mart contributed and raised a grand total of $17,518,536.00 as a result of its presence in Georgia.

Rico Email(none) Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:12PM

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And N.Y. Stats are:
As of February 2009, the total number of Wal-Mart associates in New York is 37,911.
The average wage for regular, full-time hourly associates in New York is $11.62 per hour (Wal-Mart Discount Stores, Supercenters, and Neighborhood Markets). Additionally, associates are eligible for performance-based bonuses.
In recent years, Wal-Mart has contributed four percent of an associate's eligible pay to their combined Profit Sharing and 401(k) Plan.
Suppliers
In FYE 2008, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc spent $14,011,763,956.00 for merchandise and services with 2,579 suppliers in the state of New York. As a result of Wal-Mart's relationship with these suppliers, Wal-Mart supports 178,285 supplier jobs in the state of New York.
Supplier figures provided by Dun Bradstreet.
Taxes and Fees
Wal-Mart collected on behalf of the state of New York more than $344.2 million in sales taxes in FYE 2008.
Wal-Mart paid more than $59.8 million in state and local taxes in the state of New York in FYE 2008.
Community Involvement
In 2007, Wal-Mart Stores and Sam's Club gave $7,003,897.00 in cash and in-kind donations to local causes and organizations in the communities they serve in the state of New York. Through additional funds raised through stores and Clubs throughout the state, Wal-Mart contributed and raised a grand total of $10,451,734.00 as a result of its presence in New York.

Email(none) Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:15PM

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Looks like that southern hospitality has paid off.
That might be a better argument Steve, W*M is giving most of it's handout to SOUTH!
It's not fair!
You think those Arkansas boy's have something the don't like about y'all yankey's!
(had to do that)
Email(none) Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:20PM

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HOLY COW
$14,011,763,956.00 for merchandise and services with 2,579 suppliers in the state of New York

What about that Steve?

Yes I am cut and pasting. Now thats, research- then cut - then paste!

I am of course laughing as I am doing this.

These m%therf*ckers are buying sh!t in your home state, thats some home cooking, homey.
(that was fun too)

You don't think those "suppliers" in NY actually MAKE the products sold in WM? They are simply MIDDLEMEN IMPORTERS for the manufacturers in China having pass-through addresses in NY! Most of the money goes to CHINA, not to NY!

Behold:

* 70% of the commodities sold in Wal-Mart are made in China. (China Business Weekly, November 29, 2004)

* Just because Wal-Mart bought goods from suppliers based in the United States does not mean that they were actually manufactured in the United States. In fact, Ray Bracy, Wal-Mart's vice president for federal and international public affairs, was asked, "Do you have any idea what percentage (of non-grocery, domestic sales) comes from overseas?" He responded, "What we don't know is the numbers of products that come from distributors or from manufacturers that they (sic) decide where to manufacture." Wal-Mart fails to track where their products are manufactured. (Frontline, 11162004)

Many of Wal-Mart's "American Suppliers" actually manufacture most or all of their products in China

* An example of an "American Supplier" is Hasbro, headquartered in Rhode Island. Today, Wal-Mart is the largest purchaser of Hasbro products - accounting for 21 percent of all Hasbro goods or more than $600 million in sales. But Hasbro reports, "We source production of substantially all of our toy products and certain of our game products through unrelated manufacturers in various Far East countries, principally China." Hasbro specifies that "the substantial majority of our toy products are manufactured in China." (2004 Hasbro 10-K filed with the SEC)

So they're NOT buying stuff FROM NY (or Georgia) to the amount it would seem. It's STILL mostly coming from China!

---

Donations here from local businesses, in money, goods, and in-kind, plus volunteer time, has been quite high; many choose to do so quietly and without grandstanding. Walmart doesn't give EXCEPT to get PR value, and-or bribe those who would otherwise complain; WM gives less percent per sales than local businesses do, on average; much of the "donations" you refer to come from the pockets of those WORKERS, NOT out of corporate profits. When a company takes $100 million or more OUT of the local economy and only "gives" back a few dozen thousand (equal to a few hours sales out of the whole year!), it's not a good trade.

* According to the Wal-Mart Facts website, "The typical Supercenter raises or gives $30,000 to $50,000 a year to local charitable needs ranging from youth programs to literacy councils." From a survey of Wal-Mart's grand opening contributions, its giving averages to about $47,222 per store.

According to the Nation, "The WMF's 2003 IRS 990 form is 2,239 pages long, far longer than that of the Ford Foundation, which has billions more in assets. That's because most WMF gifts are tiny: thousands or even hundreds of dollars to churches and Lions clubs and Boys and Girls clubs, $500 to the YMCA of Nashville and Middle Tennessee and to the Tulip Trace (Indiana) Girl Scouts Council and so on. Communities where Wal-Mart faced a particular battle over opening a new store -- Inglewood, California, or New York City -- enjoyed especially generous largesse. Like the flowers and other tokens of courtship from a suitor who later becomes a wife-beater, such gifts are often followed by demands for public subsidies and tax breaks. In this way Wal-Mart is repeating the strategy that has served it so well in Arkansas, where Wal-Mart and the Waltons' charitable gifts are many and company critics are relatively few. Says Lindsay Brown, president of the Central Arkansas Labor Council, 'It's a hell of a plan, and it works.' "

Taken in the context of Wal-Mart's taxpayer costs, however, Wal-Mart's per store charitable contributions do not match up to the amount of money a store takes in the "numerous forms of public assistance -- Medicaid, Food Stamps, public housing --that often allow workers to subsist on Wal-Mart's low wages. A report by the House Education and Workforce Committee conservatively places (public assistance costs) at $420,750 per store; the Wal-Mart Foundation's per-store charitable giving is just 11 percent of that amount ($47,222)."
* Source: Liza Featherstone, "On The Wal-Mart Money Trail,", The Nation, November 21, 2005.

The WALTON FAMILY Made $3.2 MILLION in Political Contributions in 2004

* "Led by Sam Walton's only daughter, Alice, the family spent $3.2 million on lobbying, conservative causes and candidates for last year's federal elections. That's more than double what it spent in the previous two elections combined, public documents show... a USA TODAY review of public documents reveals a small-town Arkansas family emerging as a political juggernaut on tax issues, extending Wal-Mart's influence over U.S. society even more."
* Source: Jim Hopkins, "Wal-Mart Family Lobbies For Tax Cuts," USA Today, April 5, 2005.

A WAL-MART Worker may donate money from their paycheck to the CRITICAL NEED FUND, a program to aid other employees in times of crisis, like a fire or tornado.

In 2004, WAL-MART Employees gave OVER $5 MILLION to help fellow workers
* Source: Form 990, Wal-Mart Associates in Critical Need Fund, 2004

The Walton Family gave $6,000
* Source: Walton Family Foundation

The WALTON FAMILY Has Given LESS THAN 1% of Their Wealth to Charity;
Bill Gates has given 58%

The number of associates is irrelevant, except for two things: as they have lower wages and fewer benefits, that has a bigger impact on local welfare and health insurance costs for the community that gets stuck paying.

* The estimated total amount of federal assistance for which Wal-Mart employees were eligible in 2004 was $2.5 billion. (The Hidden Price We All Pay For Wal-Mart, A Report By The Democratic Staff Of The Committee On Education And The Workforce, 21604)

* One 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,750 per year. This cost comes from the following, on average:

o $36,000 a year for free and reduced lunches for just 50 qualifying Wal-Mart families.

o $42,000 a year for low-income housing assistance.

o $125,000 a year for federal tax credits and deductions for low-income families.

o $100,000 a year for the additional expenses for programs for students.

o $108,000 a year for the additional federal health care costs of moving into state children's health insurance programs (S-CHIP)

o $9,750 a year for the additional costs for low income energy assistance.

(The Hidden Price We All Pay For Wal-Mart, A Report By The Democratic Staff Of The Committee On Education And The Workforce, 21604)

Wal-Mart Only Spends 77 Cents an Hour Per Employee for Health Benefits

* In 2004, Wal-Mart spent $1.5 billion on its health insurance. This amounts to an employer contribution of around only $0.77 an hour per employee. This accounts for approximately a half-percent of Wal-Mart's $285 billion in sales in 2004. (Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005, Wal-Mart Annual Report, 2005).

Wal-Mart Increased Advertising More Than Health Care

* In 2004, Wal-Mart spent nearly the same amount on advertising as it did on health insurance. In 2004, Wal-Mart reports that it spent $1.5 billion on health care benefits and $1.4 billion in advertising. (Wal-Mart Annual Report 2005, Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005)

* Between 2003 and 2004, Wal-Mart increased its advertising budget by $434 million, only increasing its spending on employee health care by $100 million. That means Wal-Mart increased its spending on advertising by 45 percent while only increasing its spending on employee health care by 7 percent. (Wal-Mart Annual Report 2005, Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005)

* In fact, Wal-Mart has consistently increased spending on advertising more than its spending on employee health care. Between 2002 and 2003, Wal-Mart put more new funds into advertising than into health care. Wal-Mart increased spending on advertising by $290 million, while only increasing health care spending by $215 million for the same period. (note: this also occurred in 1995-96, 1997-98,1998-1999). (Wal-Mart Annual Reports and 5500 Filings)

One Out of Six Wal-Mart Employees Has No Health Care Coverage At All

* This is more than double the national percentage for large firms (firms with over 100 employees). In fact, we estimate that Wal-Mart accounted in 2005 for more than 1 out of every 40 uninsured workers who are employed at a large firm. (Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart Internal Memo, 2005; Wal-Mart Annual Report; "Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance Coverage: Sponsorship, Eligibility, and Participation Patterns in 2001," Bowen Garrett, Ph.D., released by the Kaiser Family Foundation September 2004).

As I've pointed out, the average wage quoted here is BOGUS! They never specify whether the average is mean, mode, or median! You can fudge this number any way you want, to show it higher then than is really is for the AVERAGE worker, who is a part-time clerk, who doesn't make as much as these averages. THOSE averages likely included the wages of managers, drivers, and full-timers figured out in a way to make it appear larger. It's as if you and your friend were in a bar and Bill Gates came in and sat between you; the "average" net worth of the three of you would be $15 billion dollars. Whoopee!

A Substantial Number of Wal-Mart Associates earn far below the poverty line

* In 2001, sales associates, the most common job in Wal-Mart, earned on average $8.23 an hour for annual wages of $13,861. The 2001 poverty line for a family of three was $14,630. ("Is Wal-Mart Too Powerful?", Business Week, 10603, US Dept of Health and Human Services 2001 Poverty Guidelines, 2001)

* A 2003 wage analysis reported that cashiers, the second most common job, earn approximately $7.92 per hour and work 29 hours a week. This brings in annual wages of only $11,948. ("Statistical Analysis of Gender Patterns in Wal-Mart's Workforce", Dr. Richard Drogin 2003)

Wal-Mart Associates don't earn enough to support a family

* The average two-person family (one parent and one child) needed $27,948 to meet basic needs in 2005, well above what Wal-Mart reports that its average full-time associate earns. Wal-Mart claimed that its average associate earned $9.68 an hour in 2005. That would make the average associate's annual wages $17,114. ("Basic Family Budget Calculator" online at www.epinet.org)

Wage increases would cost Wal-Mart relatively little

* Wal-Mart can cover the cost of a dollar an hour wage increase by raising prices a half penny per dollar. For instance, a $2.00 pair of socks would then cost $2.01. This minimal increase would annually add up to $1,800 for each employee. (Analysis of Wal-Mart Annual Report 2005)

Wal-Mart forces employees to work off-the-clock

* Wal-Mart's 2006 Annual Report reported that the company faced 57 wage and hour lawsuits. Major lawsuits have either been won or are working their way through the legal process in states such as California, Indiana, Minnesota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and Washington. (Wal-Mart Annual Report 2006)

* In December 2005, a California court ordered Wal-Mart to pay $172 million in damages for failing to provide meal breaks to nearly 116,000 hourly workers as required under state law. Wal-Mart appealed the case. (The New York Times, December 23, 2005)

* A Pennsylvania court, also in December 2005, approved a class-action lawsuit against Wal-Mart Stores Inc. by employees in Pennsylvania who say the company pressured them to work off the clock. The class could grow to include nearly 150,000 current or former employees. (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, January 12, 2006)

* In Pennsylvania, the lead plaintiff alleges she worked through breaks and after quitting time eight to 12 unpaid hours a month, on average to meet Wal-Mart's work demands. "One of Wal-Mart's undisclosed secrets for its profitability is its creation and implementation of a system that encourages off-the-clock work for its hourly employees," Dolores Hummel, who worked at a Sam's Club in Reading from 1992-2002, charged in her suit. (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, January 12, 2006)

Wal-Mart's growth negatively impact worker's wages

* The most comprehensive study of Wal-Mart's impact showed that the stores reduced earnings per person by 5 percent. This 2005 study by an economist from the National Bureau of Economic Research used Wal-Mart's own store data and government data for all counties where Wal-Mart has operated for 30 years, It found that the average Wal-Mart store reduces earnings per person by 5 percent in the county in which it operates. (David Neumark, The Effects of Wal-Mart on Local Labor Markets 2005)

The Cost of Wal-Mart's entry into a community can be significant

* According to a 2003 estimate, the influx of big-box stores into San Diego would result in an annual decline in wages and benefits which could cost the area up to $221 million (San Diego Taxpayers Association (SDCTA), 2003)

Lower wages mean less money for communities

* When an employer pays low wages to its employees, the employees have less money to spend on goods and services in the community, which in turn reduces the income and spending of others in the community. In other words a reduction in wages has a multiplier impact in the surrounding area.

* For instance, in 1999, Southern California municipalities estimated that for every dollar decrease in wages in the southern California economy, $2.08 in spending was lost-- the $1 decrease plus another $1.08 in indirect multiplier impacts. ("The Impact of Big Box Grocers in Southern California" Dr. Marlon Boarnet and Dr. Randall Crane, 1999.)

Wal-Mart shifts retirement costs onto communities

* When employees retire without adequate savings and benefits, they are less able to pay for health care, housing, and food. Communities and taxpayers ultimately bear the cost.

Various tax scams bilk each state, the nation, and localities of billions of dollars! REIT scams avoid property taxes, "the Geoffrey loophole" scam avoids income taxes, and they dun local municipalities to reduce taxes or they threaten to leave.

* The first ever national report on Wal-Mart subsidies documented at least $1 billion in subsidies from state and local governments.

* A Wal-Mart official stated that "it is common" for the company to request subsidies "in about one-third of all retail projects." This would suggest that over a thousand Wal-Mart stores have been subsidized. ("Shopping For Subsidies: How Wal-Mart Uses Taxpayer Money to Finance Its Never-Ending Growth," Good Job First, May 2004)

New Research Shows Wal-Mart Rigs the System to Skip Out on $2.3 Billion in State Taxes

WASHINGTON, DC Wal-Mart appears to be skipping out on its fair share of taxes that most Americans have to pay to help support state governments. New research conducted in part by a leading non-partisan, non-profit tax organization reveals that Wal-Mart avoided $2.3 billion in state income taxes, cutting its payment to state governments almost in half between 1999 and 2005:
Over those seven years, Wal-Mart reported $77.4 billion in pretax U.S. profits to its shareholders. But it reported a total state income tax bill of only $2.4 billion, just 3.16%
of those profits.
Had Wal-Mart paid taxes at the statutory state corporate tax rates for the same period, it would have paid $4.7 billion in state income taxes.

For the full report:
http:(slash)(slash)www.ctj.org(slash)pdf(slash)walmart041607.pdf

---

So, all in all, YOUR post just proves that WM is BIG! We knew that!

Patricia A. Frishkoff and Alicja M.
Kostecka, "Business Contributions to
Community Service," Office of Advocacy,
U.S. Small Business Administration,
October 1991.

---

"Big Business and Community Welfare

In a country hypnotized by the mythology of bigness, there have been few empirical studies of the social and civic impacts of economic consolidation and the loss of locally owned businesses. One exception is a recent study, 'Big Business and Community Welfare,' by Dr. Thomas Lyson of Cornell University. He examined 225 counties nationwide, comparing those with economies dominated by a few large corporations to those with many small, local enterprises.

Lyson found that counties dominated by big businesses had greater income inequality, fewer owner-occupied homes, higher levels of worker disability, lower educational outcomes, and higher crime rates. Not only did the small business counties score higher on all of these socioeconomic measures, they had a larger independent middle class and higher rates of civic engagement, as measured by voter turnout and membership in community organizations."

---

"Job creation is one of the main reasons that cities court big box stores and other chains. As the evidence from the Austin study suggests, local businesses are better job creators. Moreover, cities often overlook the fact that a new big box store will not only create, but also eliminate jobs. This is because retail spending is a relatively fixed pie. It grows only incrementally as population and incomes grow. Just because Target builds a new store, it doesn't mean people will need more pairs of socks or gallons of milk. As a result, the arrival of a big box store almost invariably causes sales to decline at existing businesses, some of which will downsize or close. The resulting job losses can equal or even exceed the gains from the new store.

Studies by Dr. Kenneth Stone, an economics professor at Iowa State University, who has tracked Wal-Mart's impact on Iowa towns for more than a decade, have consistently supported the idea that retail growth is a "zero-sum-game." That is, gains in sales at new big box stores are mirrored by sales losses at existing businesses. More than 7,600 local businesses have closed since Wal-Mart first expanded into Iowa. Losses are felt not only in the community that hosts Wal-Mart, but also in smaller towns nearby. Dr. Stone has found that towns with fewer than 5,000 people within 20 miles of a Wal-Mart tend to shoulder a large portion of the economic dislocations and downtown vacancies, leaving residents with little choice but to travel long distances for even the most basic daily necessities. Dr. Stone has also studied Home Depot's economic impact and likewise concluded that it eliminates about as much economic activity as it creates.

***Local businesses are better job creators. Moreover, cities often overlook the fact that a new big box store will not only create, but also eliminate jobs.***

Other studies have reached similar conclusions. A study commissioned by the National Trust for Historic Preservation examined nine Iowa counties where Wal-Mart had located and found that 84 percent of the company's sales were captured from existing businesses within the same county. "None of the nine case studies was experiencing a high enough level of population and income growth to absorb the Wal-Mart store without losses to other businesses," the study found. There was no evidence that traffic at new big box stores brought more shoppers downtown.

Instead, "there were clearly identified losses in downtown stores after Wal-Mart opened.

General merchandise stores were most affected. Other types of stores that closed include: automotive stores, hardware stores, drug stores, apparel stores, and sporting goods stores."

http:(slash)(slash)www.newrules.org(slash)retail(slash)midcoaststudy.pdf

The crime is MORE than just a few shoplifters! Didn't you read the report? It's murder, rape, muggings, kidnapping, theft, etc! 3000% crime increase on average! And MORE jobs disappear BECAUSE of WM than come!

Blame the landlord for the condition of the mall; there are better ways to address it than putting in an out-of-scale box with so many negative impacts.

What is your evidence that "more lucrative businesses will follow"? That's just ill-informed wishful thinking! Explain how it works, PLEASE, as nobody has done this to date! When ONE big store plops onto a poor and shrinking economy, siphoning out $1-1.5 million PER WEEK, it sucks 84% of its new sales from EXISTING LOCAL BUSINESSES! If there isn't going to be enough money for EXISTING businesses to survive, even after years of loyalty and knowing their market, how will NEW "lucrative businesses" come in and make enough to survive? It can't be done in a static and even contracting economy!

What store like Peters or Matthews can survive with 20 customers? Hell, how can they even survive a 10% or 20% loss of income? THEY CAN'T! Again, denial and wishful thinking, and ignoring the data from all the studies I posted or linked to that show how WM decimates local businesses.

How will Walmart, by sucking the bulk of local spending OUT of the community, to a black hole called Arkansas, bring our community "back to life"? You make NO sense! This kind of parasitic leeching KILLS the last vestige of what still hangs on here!

The Prospect of Planet Wal-Mart: Why We Should Care and What We Can Do

A Socio-Ethical Commentary by Unitarian Universalists for a Just Economic Community

By this time, we are all aware of just how hard it is to find consumer products that are not made in China. We know these products sell because of their low prices. Still, we are troubled by the ethics of corporations who would exploit people and the environment to bring us cheap goods.

The 2003 UUA Statement of Conscience on Economic Globalization challenges UUs to "turn from self-serving individualism toward a relational sense of ourselves in a global community and toward practices that help create economic structures designed to serve the common good." By reason of this challenge, the spreading Wal-Martization of the planet should cause us to think and act. No less a concern than global economic justice is at stake.

This year, UUJEC has chosen to focus its action campaign on how Wal-Mart and other big box retailers are restructuring the global economy entirely for their profit. The campaign's goal is to encourage UUs to take specific, powerful actions that prevent big box retailing from profiting from injustice.

Wal-Mart Good for People?

Wal-Mart would have us believe that it only gives us what we want: everyday low prices. Left unsaid is that we pay for these "bargains" many times over in social and environmental losses. The reality is that Wal-Mart uses its market power to impoverish workers, take over communities, and create dependency on its "low prices".

It is true that for many people Wal-Mart is the answer to how to make ends meet. But poor people do not necessarily shop at Wal-Mart because they want to, but because they have to. And they have to because they can't afford not to, considering the below poverty level wages they make. Such wages depend, in turn, on the standard set by the nation's largest private employer Wal-Mart.

Moreover, in many communities, Wal-Mart has made sure it is the only place to shop. Using predatory pricing, Wal-Mart forces smaller community-based businesses to close. For poor communities with no other choices of where to buy essentials, Wal-Mart is the modern-day equivalent of the slave plantation store.

But it is not just poor people that shop at Wal-Mart. Sadly, Wal-Mart and other big box retailers entangle us all in our own desire for more. When we decide where to shop based solely on how much things cost at the cash register, we have forsaken our moral responsibility for understanding how our economic choices affect others in an interconnected world. This disconnection allows Wal-Mart and its ilk to profit shamelessly from violating all commonly-held ethical standards.

The Face of Globalization: Wal-Mart and Big Box Retailing

Wal-Mart's business model depends on imperiling the planet and oppressing people for profitability. Here are but a few of the facts: 1. Every year, Wal-Mart mandates a 5% drop in its suppliers' prices for standardized products, forcing suppliers to outsource production to low-wage countries. 2. Wal-Mart is China's 8th biggest trading partner. Over 70% of the commodities sold in Wal-Mart come from China. Typical work days in China's factories are 12 to 18 hours long at reported pay levels of 3 to 10 cents an hour. 3. More than 70% of Wal-Mart's U.S. workers are women, most of whom earn less than the federal poverty wage guidelines for a family of three. 4. Wal-Mart makes a profit of $20,000 every minute.

What do these facts add up to? The pattern of Wal-Mart's abuses goes beyond its questionable business practices, or even the moral responsibility of its top officers, to incarnate systemic injustice. We see a corporation that not only is ruthless, but that has also become the template for expanding corporate control of the world's resources. In sum, Wal-Mart is the face of economic globalization in our communities.

Understanding Wal-Mart's abuses as systemic is critical to understanding what is to be done. As long as we limit the problem to Wal-Mart's individual responsibility, we will not question the system that gives rise to economic injustice. This is the same kind of reasoning that argues that the torture at Abu Ghraib was the work of a few "bad apples" or that workers who have lost their livelihoods to globalization should be glad for sweatshop jobs. We must not fall into the trap of thinking, "If only Wal-Mart would behave nicely", when the system rewards its bad behavior. Already Target and other big box retailers are copying Wal-Mart's example.

Taking Action

UUJEC's vision is to ignite the passion for justice within the heart of every UU by channeling it into strategic actions that make a difference in people's lives.

In the case of Wal-Mart, we can make a huge difference. Already, hundreds of communities across the country have successfully blocked Wal-Mart from coming into town and taking over. Many UUs have been involved in these efforts. Also exciting are the many new state and local initiatives aimed at holding Wal-Mart accountable. For example, the New Jersey legislature passed a law that would require proposed big box stores to undergo economic impact reviews. Other states are looking to curb subsidies to Wal-Mart and requiring them to provide affordable health care insurance. Another important focus in challenging the Wal-Martization of our economy is the struggle for workers' rights.

But Wal-Mart is also a creature of the prevailing economic order. Seeking justice, we must also consider actions to address income inequality, rampant consumerism, and growth for growth's sake. As people of conscience, we must speak out against Wal-Mart using slave labor to subsidize our consumption in order to guarantee their profits.

And we must begin to ask what economic practices embody our UU values. An economy "designed to serve the common good" prospers through sustainable community development that does not privilege big corporations. It gives people decision-making power in their community's economic life. It success is measured in decent wage jobs, meaningful work, and economic security not corporate profits. It empowers the community to take care of its own without harm to the other side of the world. It is premised on generosity, not greed, cooperation, not competition.

It may surprise or even infuriate critics, but a new study finds Wal-Mart benefits rather than harms the American economy.

That's the conclusion of a report just released by the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, which studied the "Wal-Mart effect" for 89 counties in its region over the past two decades. The study shows that between 1985 and 2003, personal income, overall employment and retail employment grew faster in counties with a Wal-Mart than in those without one.

---

Incorrect. The following was posted as a blatant assertion absent substantiation:

"Oldtimers who won't accept change and just want to suffocate the next generations attempts of brining a almost dead town back to life."

My response -- "Nobody here is resisting change!" -- is correct. On this forum, in this thread, regarding this subject, NOBODY HERE IS RESISTING CHANGE!

Since YOU made the assertion that this is somehow not accurate, please show an example of SOMEBODY HERE "resisting change"!(BTW, if you really want to get specific, "nobody here" could be referring to my post and me only!)

As for the next post... When you have an unholy trinity of pro-corporate Fortune Magazine (remember, the one that praised Enron six years running as Most Innovative Company in America before they collapsed in a heap of criminality?), the pro-corporate Federal Reserve Bank, a private-bank masquerading as something "federal" when it has NO government status, and the Walmart beast itself, what can you expect? Only the report is rife with statistical holes, and mostly, despite pretty graphs and all, comes out a wash, with nothing statistically significant. (The Penn State study of county poverty is far more controlled and definitive in its findings -- with controls built in.)

Even the report itself states:

"Most important, none of the findings can be considered causal in nature. In other words, the findings don't tell us whether Wal-Mart's presence (or lack thereof) is responsible for either positive or negative outcomes over the period studied. Proving a causal relationship between Wal-Mart and local economic trends is beyond the scope of this analysis... We cannot say that Wal-Mart is directly responsible for any particular outcome, positive or negative, in the counties investigated... Proving a causal relationship between Wal-Mart and local economic trends is rife with complications. Indeed, such complexity is one of the reasons controversy continues to swirl around the company."

Which kinda makes the report worthless, if you can't draw any causal conclusions, despite the breathless hyping of Fortune. And what about the leads they bury:

The study finds that retail wages fell in every county examined with a Wal-Mart store, and that employee benefits were better in counties without Wal-Marts. Additionally, and perhaps most notably, the authors found that poverty rates were significantly higher in counties containing a Wal-Mart store. These findings seem to counter the authors assertion that Wal-Marts impact on local economies is minor.

The Minneapolis Fed study also ignores costs such as increased traffic and sprawl when Wal-Mart comes to communities (something Fortune probably would ignore as not important).

For MANY studies that are more diverse and relevant go to:

http:(slash)(slash)walmartwatch.com(slash)research(slash)list(slash)cat(slash)community(underline)impact

Here's a typical example:

The Impact of the Wal-Mart Phenomenon on Rural Communities

Report by the Farm Foundation on the impact of Wal-Mart stores on local retail sectors. From the introduction:

"There is strong evidence that rural communities in the United States have been more adversely impacted by the discount mass merchandisers (sometimes referred to as the Wal-Mart phenomenon) than by any other factors in recent times. Studies in Iowa have shown that some small towns lose up to 47 percent of their retail trade after 10 years of Wal-Mart stores nearby (Stone 1997)...

The study looked at 34 towns in Iowa that had Wal-Mart stores for at least 10 years. The retail performance of these towns was compared to 15 towns of the same population group that did not have Wal-Mart stores. The towns ranged from 5,000 population to 40,000 population. Results for two digit Standard Industrial Classification Codes (SIC) are discussed below...

The general merchandise stores in the non Wal-Mart towns began declining immediately after the Wal-Mart stores opened. Their sales declined by two percent after the first year and continued declining to a cumulative 34 percent after 10 years. A few of these towns had a K Mart store (typically an older, smaller store), and all of them had one or more regional discount store, such as Pamida, Alco or Place's. It is believed that people in the towns without Wal-Mart stores migrated to the towns with Wal-Mart stores to shop for general merchandise."

Or this one, focusing more on urban areas:

There is strong evidence that jobs created by Wal-Mart in metropolitan areas pay less and are less likely to offer benefits than those they replace, a study by the UC Berkeley Center for Labor Research and Education concluded.

In urban and suburban areas with Wal-Marts, and where jobs tend to be higher-paid, "we found an impact that is quite significant," said Ken Jacobs, a University of California, Berkeley, professor who co-authored the December study. Jacobs said the labor center's findings in rural areas were similar to today's study.

Eighty-three percent of retail jobs are found in urban and suburban areas, Jacobs said.

Another study also issued by his colleagues at the UC Berkeley Labor Center concluded that wages in states with 50 or more Wal-Marts were 10 percent lower and health coverage 5 percentage points lower than in areas without Wal-Marts.

I was referring to HIS posts only, or at most, the dialog between him and me. For you to extrapolate the statement to posts beyond that because YOU would like to is bogus straw.

12:11, (same anonymous person, I'm guessing)

I stand by my statement; it is NOT a sweeping generalization but specific to the limits outlined, and I again challenge you to refute it, but you won't, as I've already pointed out.

You know, you only look like a nag when you repeat the same post so soon, as if I've been purposely avoiding it and YOU have some superior right or need to make me respond on YOUR timetable. Homey don't play that.

Have YOU responded to MY previous responses?

"So Steve, why is it ok for the small business owner to sell made in china, and a sin for walmart to do the same?"

That's more bogus straw. Who ever phrased it that way? ALL outsourcing to China has had a marked negative effect on US firms and jobs. Walmart has LED the way, with 70-80% of their purchases from there, being China's 8th largest trading partner. THAT is what has forced others to take the low road to stay competitive. I'm thinking that the proportion of Chinese products in local stores is lower than WM; Image, for one, has refused to carry some lines that WM has outsourced to China into making as cheaper, lower-quality versions of the original name brand.

Peters, for one, liberally donates to such events as the Noonday Club Senior Dinner, Hospital Health Fair, Hospital Auxiliary, Noonday Halloween, Playground Committee, Hunt Memorial, penny socials, etc. Peters gives many non-profits the space to DO fundraising right in their store (so, too, does Shoprite). This is part of the true social capital that WM destroys and never fully replaces.

You start with an assumption that the average employee is FT at $11. Well, that's not the case, so your calculation is way off. I gave the numbers above that show otherwise.

Zero is better than a minus! A "nothing" is better than a BAD! Walmart is NOT the only alternative to what exists, indeed, is not only not the best choice, but is among the worst. The "cure" might wind up killing the patient!

I challenge your prejudiced and unsupported claim that local small business are "raping and pillaging the local community"! (This is of the "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" type of presupposition fallacy!)

Are you going to keep posting the same post forever? Did you not read my detailed response that preceded your last iteration? Will you not be satisfied until I give you the answers YOU presuppose to be correct?

---

1:19,

Sez who? Are YOU the "majority"? Are you the official spokesperson for the "majority"? Did you take a comprehensive poll?

Besides, as I've pointed out, the "majority" can often be wrong; ONE person with the truth outweighs the ill-informed majority.

---

Wal-Mart dumps Douglas store

Associated Press - March 6, 2009 11:25 AM ET

DOUGLAS, Wyo. (AP) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has dropped plans to build a 99,000-square-foot supercenter in Douglas.

Wal-Mart, using tax avoidance schemes provided to it by the accounting firm Ernst Young, has short-changed many states out of millions of dollars of state tax money. As revealed in a February, 2007 Wall Street Journal story, Wal-Mart pays billions of dollars in rent per year, yet in many states the retail giant has been paying rent to itself and then deducting those amounts from its state taxes.

Corporate tax loopholes are having a profound effect on state revenue collections, and mounting evidence demonstrates that Wal-Mart has aggressively pursued them for many years in order to avoid paying state taxes. The tax schemes vary in complexity as well as legality from state to state, but the underlying results are the same: these strategies have saved Wal-Mart from paying hundreds of millions of dollars in state taxes.

Wal-Mart has been taking advantage of a tax loophole that the federal government closed years ago, paying rent to itself then deducting it from state taxes in about twenty-five states.

Data from filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission show that on average Wal-Mart has paid only about half the statutory state rates over the past decade. Many states have taken a proactive approach and computed Wal-Mart's tax bills by combining the company's tax return with those of tax-shelter subsidiaries created during the 1990s, contending that Wal-Mart's income tax returns have failed to disclose Wal-Mart's true earnings on its business carried on in a particular state.

What will YOU do when they DON'T?

It was from a WalmartWatch intro to the complete report; their words entirely:

Intro:
http:(slash)(slash)walmartwatch.com(slash)research(slash)documents(slash)save(underline)money(underline)live(underline)better(underline)wal(underline)marts(underline)state(underline)tax(underline)avoidance(underline)schemes

Report:
http:(slash)(slash)walmartwatch.com(slash)img(slash)blog(slash)state(underline)tax(underline)avoidance.pdf

My wife and I do most of our regular shopping at Peters and Shoprite for the regular necessities, that is, the things we consume regularly. During the summer, we get fresher local produce from the CSA and the farmer's market. We also belong to a health food coop, but we don't order often; it's mostly for some bulk items or organic stuff we can't get locally. There are some items we might order online, like 25 pound bags of almonds, or goji berries, or raw cacao nibs, which simply aren't available locally or even regionally, in quantity.

Other than everyday food and household items (what we don't get at Peters or Shoprite is usually from RiteAid, Thorntons, Ace, Dollar General; I used to get stuff regularly from Ames and Ritchies too), we rarely buy things that can't be found locally, so we often depend for online shopping for computer-related stuff for business, books, bicycles and parts, some specialty travel items.

I rarely buy new clothes, as I have enough to last me two lifetimes; I still have pants, shirts, socks, and shoes I bought at JAMESWAY, which preceded Ames! I don't wear-out clothing much, and I'm good with a needle and thread for minor repairs. I like military surplus for durability, and tech stuff (supplex, coolmax, buzzoff) for travel, which is hard to find locally; I often pick up a particular item while traveling. I'm probably cheaper than you, and don't like to spend much money on anything, particularly clothes. I like bargains; if the stuff locally were as expensive as some claim, I wouldn't be buying it, so it can't be that bad.

So, I CAN and DO get nearly everything I NEED in town. Some things I WANT can be found here, and things that can't be found in the village, town, or county, I will wait until I come across wherever, or will search online if time is a factor. I like that I can support local organic farmers with the CSA, and other farms at the farmers market.

I do much of the family shopping, so I know what the prevailing rates are, and the prices here for REAL food aren't that bad. Learn to live with less, and spend wisely.

I already said, honestly and fully last month, that in all my life I've only purchased an item from Walmart ONE TIME, when we were looking for a particular item to fit a particular space and after searching nearly a dozen stores in the area, it turned out that only the WM in Monticello had something that fit the bill. That's it.

But even if I'd purchased more, so what? AS one of the town councilmen said at WERD's first meeting, "I like shopping at Walmart; I just don't think it's right for THIS area." The question isn't whether there are enough (there are six in a 30-mile radious), or whether one can NEVER buy there (ONE purchase is plenty, but so what?), but is a WM RIGHT for THIS AREA! The answer is it isn't, and THAT is the argument I've been making and MY personal behavior has no bearing on THAT argument, even if it WEREN'T as consistent as one likely can be on it.

Some of us dont eat "REFUTE" "NUTS" for a meal.

After are 2nd "Big Box" store , I'll come back here to read more of "YOUR" Non-Sense

Your argument is like the old story about the guy promoting "bunnyburgers," starting out with "Let's say that everyone buys one bunnyburger per day." And then he spins out how much money will be made, and how successful the business will be. But he never shows WHY or how "everyone" will buy one bunnyburger per day! The whole thing is built on a false premise, or one that, technically, is known as the fallacy of audiatur et altera pars, where one just assumes that unspecified assumptions are a given. You have done similarly.

In this case, you just mention a magical appearance of "hair salons that are cheap and affordable, book stores, video rentals, gamestops, small buffets and resturants" with no explanation of WHY they would set up in a town that just had ONE store suck away most of the available CASH that THEY would need!

Why would a book store (which hasn't opened up here to date) open here after Walmart, NOW the nations largest bookseller, opened up? To compete with WM when around the nation local bookstores and chains CLOSE after WM comes to town? Did you ever think this through? And if they have their own hair salon, why would a new one have to open, when we already HAVE a few, which will possible close AFTER WM comes to town? Same with videos, which WM will carry.

Yes, in a GROWING and higher population area, stores tend to congregate around anchors in Sprawl-land; whether Walmart "brings" them or THEY "bring" WM, is a chicken and egg or rooster making the sun rise conundrum. But that isn't so here; you just magically have stores coming when there's no indication that they were interested up until now, even without competition for each dollar from WM, so why come when WM will siphon 84% or so of its initial sales from EXISTING local stores' purchases. Seeing that, a wise company would know that there's not going to be enough money left over to make it worth their while. Too many decimated downtowns and malls prove this.

Calling your blatant assertions the plain truth doesn't make them so; I'd rather go with statistics and the experience of small strapped towns like ours than your wishful thinking and unsubstantiated beliefs, or apples to oranges comparisons.

Image originally moved next to Shoprite assuming that traffic to Shoprite would leak over to them; it didn't and they had to close. You will more likely get something to eat IN WM than go over to some outside eatery. When they've taken all your wallet's cash, or you've maxed out your cards, and you've just spent hours more than you planned, and the kids are screaming, and the car is stuffed... YOU GO HOME!

People BELIEVE WM saves money, but that is an illusion, as I've shown. AND it costs each taxpayer nearly $3000 per year to subsidize WM workers' benefits that WM doesn't cover! So it's coming out of your OTHER pocket!

Many of the stats are taken from WM's own numbers. Don't dismiss them with a handwave just because YOU don't understand the statistical method the experts use to minimize or prevent bias or error.

Success is relative, and in WM's case it came at the expense of thousands of stores, hundreds of manufacturers, and hundreds of thousands of jobs.

Ames (and Jamesway before it) was always in the black HERE! They had very good prices and good selection (I used to go there once a week for stuff) and didn't "rob the community blind." They were a very good fit for this community, and just the right size; they didn't go broke HERE at all!

It wasn't because of anything they did wrong here; they closed only because the PARENT company and chain as a whole went bust, and Walmart was a major reason! So you don't know what you're talking about!

Kingston is OUR "local" regional shopping center! That's what a regional shopping center is for! (Sales taxes there go to the same place as sales taxes from Ellenville!) There is a level of population and centrality that justified this level of development around Kingston at one time (even though it killed the Kingston downtown shopping district pretty much). WE can't support this level of shopping venue in a hamlet of Napanoch's size, or in a town like Wawarsing, "30 miles from everywhere in the middle of nowhere"!

JCMe Email Mar 7, 2009 -- 1:9PM"

The Queen and fascists dictators may be excused for speaking for US. Steve does, and is expected to, speak only for himself. Everyone in America speaks only for themselves. People here whom speak for US are VERY SELFCENTER SELF GLORIFING CREEP IDIOT.

But local kids WILL have to share the road with Walmart's tractor trailers. Are dead kids just the cost of doing business? Are Wawarsing's kids less worthy of a safe bikeway than kids in an affluent town?

Let's frame this accurately, and not your reverse-twist version:

No, Walmart will not come to Napanoch simply because THEY want to; they will come if they still want to AND they get the go ahead from the town and county planning boards, AFTER prudent review!

The only unilateral decision WM can make is to decide to NOT pursue their application. They don't need the PBs or me or WERD to CHOOSE to NOT come. But just because they WANT to come doesn't mean they'll be able to! HUNDREDS of communities have said NO to WM and, in spite of Walmart WANTING to come, THEY COULD NOT!

I think that, like the British leaving India, Walmart will do as in Douglas Wyoming and CHOOSE to walk out!

---

8:0,

I don't know how or why you WOULD have been offended by ME, as my remarks were not even addressed AT you! THAT was the absurd interpretation of another anonymous person who likes to take words out of context to hit me over the head with.

I simply said: "IF Walmart comes, ALL of Napanoch will likely become "memorabilia"!"

That had NOTHING to do with YOU or your offer, which I said was great and generous. Yes, my remark was a musing inspired by your comment, but only on the notion of WHAT "memorabilia" is, NOT on your offer of pictures.

Someone who clearly dislikes me for some unknown reason merely wanted to use YOU as grist for HIS mill and said: "Steve, there was no need for you to be so demeaning and angry at him. If I were him, I'd forget the whole thing now. The nice guy just can't win with you around."

Now, as I was hardly angry at YOU, or demeaning to YOU, the conclusion that YOU should forget the whole thing, based on a bogus premise, is silly on its face. YOU should be upset, if with anyone, at that anonymous person for suggesting YOU should withdraw YOUR offer because of HIS twisted version of what happened.

---

You aren't showing the "successes" in other regions; you are just posting factoid numbers out of context, and they are manipulated figures to suggest more than they truly mean. I posted refutation of their value, AND general universal stats that were not just "some other place" but were the broader and more relevant examples, from all over. So, I took the time to meticulously look up and post refutation, and you just want to dismiss it with a handwave. Sorry, but no points for that!

Dozens of businesses turned Tso down when he first proposed his "destination mall," INCLUDING Walmart*, because his plan made no sense FOR OUR AREA! You can't MAKE people come to a destination that ISN'T ONE! The logical solution, which I gave to Tso on a silver platter, but he was ORDERED not to listen, was to look at what WORKED... an Ames-type store ALWAYS was in the black and didn't kill-off the other businesses. It wasn't a "destination mall," but a 50K s.f. department store that MET local shopping needs not otherwise met. People didn't HAVE to travel from afar (not that they were going to), because the local shoppers were exactly enough to keep the store profitable! Their scale was appropriate to the town.

Wawarsing can't support a supercenter, much less a supercenter AND the existing businesses, much less a supercenter, the existing businesses, AND the wishful thinking that MORE big "lucrative" stores will follow WM and set up as well. THERE ISN'T ENOUGH CASH HERE to support all that!

You can't turn Napanoch overnight into a regional shopping destination like Kingston or Middletown! There is neither the population base nor the cash to support it! And it goes against the Comp Plan and all that people say they want the town to BE. People stay here and move to here because it is NOT another sprawling glut of stores!

There are some in WERD who still believe WM is coming and want to use the pressure to get concessions. So, yes, if WM comes, that pressure will make for a "less bad" WM, to some minor degree. If it weren't for the pressure, the satellite building would still look like, as John Adams says, "a Jiffylube" instead of something a bit less starkly bland. But that is the fall back position for me, NOT the goal. I don't see how a little cosmetic veneer undoes the harm that the mere presence of a corporate behemoth vacuum does to the fragile local economy.

A REAL fighter doesn't concede the battle before it's over! There's plenty of battle left and we have already WON a couple of rounds! The dead towns are littered with those who "thought" they could make "WM a better place"! The "accomodationists" have no idea what they are dealing with; WM may make a minor concession here or there, but their main goal is to take over and monopolize a local market. It is their nature, like the scorpion that kills the frog carrying it across the river, so that they both drown.

You can't better a place if a major obstacle is not first removed; Walmart can undo years of work to establish a viable local economy. Yes, jobs make money, but WM causes a NET LOSS of jobs, hence a LOSS of money!

---

The increased crime in a place like the Napanoch WM would not be because of "Ellenville"! It would be because WALMART* is a crime magnet! It attracts those who seek easy gain by shoplifting, bad checks, muggings, etc. This is universal, as the reports show. Your argument that WM increases Ellenville crime activity makes no sense.

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9:53,

You have a problem with the school, go to the school board. Don't just wave supposed claims at ME. And don't throw false assumptions at me like, "Why doesn't waisted tax money concern you?" Where would you get THAT silly presupposition? Of course it concerns me, even if it is a sweeping generalization without specifics.

RIP ED BRUSH. YOU MADE US CRY, YOU MADE US LAUGH, YOU PUT A SMILE ON OUR FACE. THE ELKS, LEGION, SCORESBY, PIONEERS ARE GOING TO MISS YOU.MAY GOD BLESS YOU.

BUTCH BETTY Mar 10, 2009 -- 2:57AM

Instead of the " divide and conquer", "us vs. them", "Steve vs. whomever" mentality, is there any chance in hell we can all pull together as a Town and get some help, organization, cooperation or something even close to that around here?

Is anyone in local "power" applying for anything for "us"? You know, like "stimulus" money thru the County, State or Feds? Do we taxpayers need to sign something? Do we need to write and mail our own surveys? Who is in charge of researching those things and applying for them?

I hope we can stop playing "ostrich" or biting each other like hyenas, hoping we can get it together folks, the negative energy isn't getting anything productive done so far, IMHO.

Can we, as a Town, a Community, as the isolated Mountain-loving people we are, think together of a plan for what WE want and most important of all..what we NEED? What your children will need.

We NEED good-paying, life-sustaining, benefit offering, long-term jobs. Now how are we gonna get there? How long are we gonna wait? What if WM breaks your hearts and takes the ring back?

You are NOT FAR from the truth!

I always took WM's coming seriously, even when others wouldn't believe it, and they thought it was a ploy by Tso to up the price for his declining property.

Yeah, WM's logic isn't our logic, and it makes no sense for them to come, but they have the time and money to play a bigger game, one which saturates all territory with a Walmart, so that no potential competitor can grab a toehold. As I said, they will be like the British walking out of India, eventually, in the fullness of time, when they realize that it won't work in Wawarsing and can't be sustained.

Which is why, in December 2006 I WENT TO TSO with "Plan B"! Most of those who became part of WERD supported the plan, but as Tso's attorney (mayor of Ellenville, likely prompted by Walmart's attorneys) ORDERED Tso not to talk to me or anyone, the plan died at his doorstep.

It's still a viable plan, particularly if we combine TWO viable models: first, go to professionals who have SUCCESSFULLY re-opened CLOSED Ames stores and get their help (I contacted the CEOs of the two companies who had done this in NYS, and they were bullish on the idea); second, raise a good part of the money locally, by selling shares to locals, and set up a MERCANTILE, as others have successfully done, to make sure the store is mostly OURS, so WE decide what gets sold, and how much to charge, and that it supports, not destroys, the local economy.

I never got a chance to develop the whole plan, as what's the point if Tso was ordered NOT to listen? But it could be done, and not needing that much time; I made the initial contacts with the two CEOs within two mere days of starting my search!

Personally, I'd rather forget Napanoch and put this store IN Ellenville, where it really belongs! Such a mercantile, properly inventoried, could fit in a building the size of the old D and M, or the old JM Originals, or the Sunray plant, or where Ace had been (the new Ace location would have been ideal, but bless Brian for taking the risk to open there!). The main reason for the old Ames location was to PREVENT WM. But if WM comes, even a mercantile would have a hard time competing, unless the whole community were behind it; and if a whole community were already behind such an idea, WM wouldn't be necessary in the first place, as what happened when Powell Wyoming set up a mercantile in the closed Stage department store, which precluded needing to go to the Walmart 25 miles away in Cody (which I've seen, BTW), and would have already been told to go packing.

Yeah, the town and village are scrambling like everyone else to get a share of the bailout money, which is the last phase of a democracy, according to an unverifiable cite that has been circulating on the internet everywhere, claimed as "going back two centuries, in which a somewhat obscure Scotsman named Tytler made this profound observation: 'A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.'" (the earliest usage of "Why Democracies Fail" that has been located was printed on page 12A of the Daily Oklahoman on December 9, 1951 apparently by an Elmer T. Peterson, all other attempts to place it further back having no proof.)

But these are all one-shot projects: bridges, sewer plants, roads. And money will be spent on roads that will soon have little traffic on them, and educations that will have no jobs in those fields, and other attempts to prop up a future with... no future! We should be "making other arrangements." Only a community can do that.

We need a county militia to provide local security when the national guard can't be counted on to protect communities from roving bands of brigands. We need training in organic farming to grow local food in lawns and golf courses when the oil and fertilizer runs out, so that the food delivery trucks can't deliver the food that can't be grown on far away commercial farms that can't fertilize the dead soil that hasn't had water since the droughts began. We need to learn how to repair and maintain the old infrastructure and machines, because new ones or parts aren't going to be made or delivered. We need to learn to produce local energy from water, wind, sun, and wood, because the oil, propane, gasoline, and steady AC power from afar won't be reliable or available at all. This, too, requires a community, pulling together, with a common vision and an acceptance that the old "American Way of Life" is not coming back, can't be propped up, and that "other arrangements" need to be planned for NOW, for implementation when the spit finally hits the fan.

There will be NO "good-paying, long-term jobs" of the type found in the complex, fragile organized society we got used to in the 20th century. We will all have to do SOME farming, SOME community service, SOME security detail, SOME teaching and learning, SOME construction or repairing of public projects like dams, windfarms, barricades.

WM won't provide those, but neither will the same-old-same-old "business as usual" thinking that is trying to sustain the unsustainable, maintain a "Happy Motoring" "Fly the Friendly Skies" "Shop til you Drop" lifestyle.

If you REALLY want to "think ahead," DARE to think REALLY ahead to what is over the hill, beyond the horizon, and stop assuming that what is in the rear view mirror is what's up ahead. Read the international news, the most visionary thinkers, the experts in resource depletion and social breakdown. What I predicted two years ago is already here; the riots in dozens of CIVILIZED countries NOW, are only months away from being HERE once people realize they've been lied to, and screwed, and that all attempts to fix the problem were smoke and mirrors and money down a rathole, a depletion of wealth and resources that can't be recaptured. And after the treasury has been depleted, the only wealth will be what we have around us, and the labor to utilize it. And if the population exceeds our carrying capacity, then not everyone will survive, sorry.

Steve, I suppose people like me are turned off by HOW you try to get your point across. I believe others here HAVE thought about all you mentioned, only difference is, we didn't need a long-winded, full-of-self, superior attitude to say it. You are no genius, just a loud, back-seat driver with no more advantage or power than the rest of us to change a damn thing.

Best of luck to all. I suppose we got the answers any taxpayer could ask for. While it wasn't the one we wanted as a Community or even needed, at least it's on the table and easier for me as an individual to make the decision that is right for my family.

With all I have read here, and no official capacity with solutions willing to step-up, I'd have to surmise that there is no future here to be had. We won't be applying for any more Building Permits to enhance our property, there is no point. No more tax increases for me due to Home Improvement, I've had enough. The overall value I have invested in this house will never be realized and has already been lessened by poor planning, lack of action, and lazy neighbors who have already given up on maintaining their own properties. Our children will not be stuck here with no future, we'll make sure of that.

Re: Tillson....I grew up there and it hasn't changed much in 60 years. It was left behind. Post Office became the Postage Inn. The Beer distributors became lumber yards and such. The General Store (Coon's) became Mulligan's bus garage. IBM brought in the housing that used to be an asparagus farm. Tillson estates was built by part of my family to support IBM. There is nothing there. Rosendale had a revitilization in the early 70's. That is my home town. It is still a dormant spot on the map. Most of the locals are gone. One man owns the rail trail and limits the use. They would love to have development, but busy bodies, who do not know the history are trying to twist arms. The Thruway made a bypass of the area and it died. The report, in the paper, was way off.

Napanoch isn't much different. Nothing there to attract the public. People are not going to walk our trails to shop there.

WERD doesn't need anonymous defenders.

Community groups HAVE stopped, and WILL continue to stop, Walmarts! Even where THEY wanted to go! When local groups have the LAW on their sides, or something worth fighting for, numbers don't always matter. Like the British walking out of India, even Walmart* can sometimes see the writing on the Wal!

When you say "We ALL welcome" WM, you do NOT speak for ALL! Speak for yourself, OK? Oh, right, you're still anonymous.

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JCMe,

You start with a fallacy of presupposition: "Why fight what is needed?" People don't NEED Walmart*; they NEED, for example, air or water, without which THEY DIE. As we don't have a local WM, and we haven't died, then WM isn't something we NEED, only something SOME PERSONS WANT! One has to learn to distinguish between NEEDS and WANTS!

Persons don't want a 1-4" drill bit; they want a 1-4" hole! The drill bit is one of several ways to accomplish the hole.

Persons want a convenient store that carries items not now locally available (actually, many items ARE locally available, but many persons turn a blind eye to that, because it would diminish their argument that we NEED a WM), and that's perfectly reasonable. Ames, and Jamesway before that, even Ritchie's in the Village, carried many of those peripheral items. Why not work to get an APPROPRIATE-SIZED store that doesn't do the damage Walmart is KNOWN to do? I tried that, and had the solution in hand, but Tso was ORDERED not to listen.

That is for 10 stores.

Walmart is replacing the largest 2 stores.

4 businesses are moving to the other building.

Walmart wont have restaurants.

So even if you say Walmart is replacing 5 of the stores it still isn't 110,000 sq ft they are replacing.

80,000 sq ft maybe?
Walmart wants 130,000 sq ft. PLUS an outdoor garden center space not figured into the square footage of the building.

More than 50,000 square feet bigger than what they are replacing.

Which is asking to add more than half the sq ft they are replacing

Alice considered a little, and then said "The fourth."

"Two days wrong!" sighed the Hatter. "I told you butter wouldn't suit the works!" he added looking angrily at the March Hare.

"It was the best butter," the March Hare meekly replied.

"Yes, but some crumbs must have got in as well," the Hatter grumbled: "you shouldn't have put it in with the bread-knife."

Wal-Mart project officially canceled

Regan Kohler
11.MAR.09

SHELL LAKE - The Washburn County Board will be announcing next week that the Wal-Mart project is officially canceled, despite a brief comeback.

The board's executive committee was not aware of this at their meeting Monday, March 9, in the Elliott Building, Shell Lake, as they were discussing approving an eighth extension Wal-Mart had requested on its developer's agreement at next week's meeting.

The Wal-Mart store will definitely not be coming to Spooner, and will be issuing an official announcement later, executive committee Chair Michael Bobin said Tuesday morning, March 10. He said that he'd heard from the company's real estate department, and they were "pulling the plug" on a requested yearlong extension on the developers agreement, which was to be discussed by the county board next week. However, the company still owes $157,000 in escrow from its extension fees it was required to pay each time they went past the deadline.

The Wal-Mart store that was to be built in Spooner on CTH H and Hwy. 53 was canceled, representatives told the county board in December. The project was canceled, according to a press release, due to "corporate strategy to improve returns, productivity and sales within its stores across the country."

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By Stacy Mitchell, originally published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune, January 15, 2009

Abandoned big-box stores, dead and dying strip malls and empty storefronts are about to join foreclosed houses as one of the defining features of the American landscape in 2009.

Within a few months, more than one-eighth of the country's retail space will be sitting vacant, according to some estimates. That's about 1.4 billion square feet, or 50 square miles, of empty store space, ringed by roughly 150 square miles of useless parking lot.

It will be tempting to blame the weak economy for all of this wreckage. But the recession has merely been the trigger. This avalanche of vacant retail, much like the mortgage crisis, has been a long time in the making.

Since the early 1990s, the pace of retail development has far outstripped growth in spending. Between 1990 and 2005, the amount of store space in the United States doubled, ballooning from 19 to 38 square feet per person. Meanwhile, real consumer spending rose just 14 percent.

With big chains, like Wal-Mart, Target and Home Depot, leading the way, retail development became, to a large extent, a predatory enterprise. Waves of ever-bigger big-box stores and new shopping centers have succeeded, not by satisfying growing demand, but by cannibalizing sales, first from downtowns and older malls, and then from other recently built shopping centers and big-box stores.

City officials have been largely complicit in this merry-go-round. Many have clung to the idea that building new stores creates jobs and tax revenue, when all most of these projects do is siphon economic activity from other parts of town. By zoning plenty of open land for retail, cities have given developers little incentive to redevelop older shopping centers. Why bother when fresh ground waits a mile up the road?

Long before the financial crisis hit, PricewaterhouseCoopers had deemed the United States vastly "overstored." In a 2003 report, the investment research firm declared that the "most overretailed country in the world hardly needs more shopping outlets of any kind." But few cities heeded that warning. Indeed, even as the economy began to slow in 2007, retail development continued at a furious pace, with more than 140 million square feet of new shopping centers and big-box stores opening.

We now face a painful reckoning. Already, many communities are saddled with dying malls and derelict big-box stores. In Minnesota, abandoned Wal-Mart stores have been sitting idle in Albert Lea and Owatonna for years, while Brookdale, the mall in Brooklyn Center, is fast approaching 50 percent vacancy.