Should we not worry about global warming too?

Why do you people want to keep your head in the sand?

Wal-mart will suck MORE money out of the community and state than put back in.

Wal-mart will only employee people part-time so they will have to get public assistance to pay the bills.
(Thus taking more from the town and state)

Wal-mart will kill all the local harware stores that have been here for generations.

Wal-mart will take more of our personality out of the area.

Wal-mart is the end of Wawarsing, PERIOD!

"They call this progress. But they don't say where it's going; also there are some of us who would like the chance to say whether or not we want the ride."
William Faulkner, Letter to the Editor Oxford Eagle, Mississippi 1947

Its sucks to be resident of Wawarsing.Watch Gov Patterson raising taxes across the line,including on newspapers.

Bella will make it anywhere,next to anybody.Dare to keep insulting me?Go ahead-that is what you want,don't you?You got my permission.

toysmadeinamerica dot com

Asleep is not what 3 liguar stores, NY state lottory does to us.

Selling off our home land is not putting us to sleep.

The cases, which were brought by different groups of lawyers in various states, involved hundreds of thousands of current and former hourly employees. The total amount to be paid will depend on the number of claims submitted, but it will be at least $352 million, Wal-Mart said."

At tonights Planning Board meeting I read from this presentation. I'm afraid I may have left out some important references.

Wal-Mart vigil
protests wages, health benefits
WakeUpWalmart.com supporters gather outside Wal-Mart in Thompson yesterday to protest the retailers wages, health benefits and outsourcing.
Times Herald-RecordMICHELE HASKELL
By Victor Whitman
Times Herald-Record
December 20, 2007
Monticello Monticello resident Phyllis Givens says Wal-Mart rakes in billions yet won't pay her friends and relatives that work there health benefits.
Joan Laliberte, the vicar of St. Andrews Episcopal church, says Wal-Mart employees come into her food pantry in South Fallsburg "drained" after work to pick up food to stretch their checks.

Local activists demonstrate at local Wal-Mart
Health insurance is one issue
By FRITZ MAYER, The River Reporter
MONTICELLO, NY - In a scene that was similar to many that have played out across the country in the past few years, a small group of local residents gathered together to draw attention to some of the employment practices of the worlds largest retail chain.

A candlelight vigil in front of a corp. giant Wal-Mart in Monticello, held at about 5:00 p.m. on December 19 and organized by local activist Sandy Oxford, drew about a dozen people. They stood in lightly falling snow and made short speeches as a half-dozen reporters and photographers looked on.

Sullivan County lawmaker Ron Hiatt (lawyer) was one of those who addressed the crowd. He said he showed up in support of part-time employees. My heart goes out to these poor people, who are willing to work full time, willing to provide for their families, and theyre denied, because a corporate giant only allows them to work part time, so the corporate giant doesnt have to provide them health care, he said.

Nina Hutchinson, the vicar of St. Johns Episcopal Church in Monticello, offered a prayer. In part, she prayed to soften the grip of greed in the power structures in our society. Help corporate America to see that there is no quality of life for any, when some are exploited and oppressed.

Another vicar, Joan Laliberte of St. Andrews Episcopal Church in South Fallsburg and St. James Episcopal Church in Callicoon, also addressed the small group. She said, One of the things that Ive observed at our food pantry in South Fallsburg is people coming to the food pantry, worn out, tired from their shift at Wal-Mart, but their money doesnt stretch far enough to buy food and good things for their families. So they have to have our help. This is not the way America was designed to work.

No official from the store came out during the 15-minute event, which seemed to annoy only a few holiday shoppers, whose paths were briefly blocked as photographers stepped into the lane while taking photographs.

The next day, this reporter waited on hold while Wal-Mart employees tried to find a member of management who could comment on the event. After 30 minutes of listening to a rather pleasant string of Christmas songs, this reporter decided to move on to the next story and hung up.
http:www.riverreporter.comissues08-01-03news-walmart.html

Give it up already!
Any jobs in these times are good jobs.

Let Wal*Mart build their HUGH store in the Middletown style, no more impact statements and just build. Unless of course you don't mind HIGHER unemployment.

Not many are up for that. It's disapointing sometimes how comments here fade to the same old "why bothers" the next day. When I read I am inspired to act.

a line from Charles Dickenss Great Expectations: We spent as much money as we could, and got as little for it as people could make up their minds to give us.

"We used to be hunter-gatherers, now we're shopper-borrowers." Robin Williams, 1990

Question: Why are we violent and not illiterate?
Answer: We are taught to read."
Coleman McCarthy

Tomorrow night is the 40th anniversary of Moon Rise, one of the most famous photographs of our generation.
From an anonymous blogger: **"This photograph, as much as anything that I can imagine, begs us to understand that for our own good, for our own survival, it is imperative that we find ways to scuttle the "war system," the system that holds that "might makes right," in favor of a system of governance based on just, democratic, and enforceable world law, backed by the legislative, executive, and judicial institutions required to make it operable. This is not an idle dream; it is with a high probability a requirement for the long term survival of the human race and perhaps of life on Earth."

Steven Covey suggests: "The problem is the way we see it".
Does this imply the solution is a another point of view? You betchyorbippy.

In the past year there have been attempts to bring in the artists recycling group now based in New Paltz, formerly in Walden.

In the past year an attempt was made to bring aluminum construction to our town to fasilitate electric car construction. What was Mr. Tso reply when asked about bringing them in?

In recent months the solar consortium has been interested in settling in Ulster and has yet to settle on location. What effort is being made at present to bring them to Wawarsing and why are we not kept posted about this in the Journal?

What has been publicised of these and other crucial efforts at prosperity?
What have Mr. Tso, Mr. Kaplin and Mr. Auerback done to fasilitate these efforts?

While EJ and others have busied themselves with controversy over anonymity and road rallies, WM has firmed it's foot hold. And we know where our officials stand with that.

The real solution to prosperity is jobs, not just sales jobs but creative industry. Our focus is not on creating jobs but controversy, anonymity and personality.

After revolutionising the tv antenae industry (Channel Master), after creating world class cutlery (Schrade), after creating one of the more notable engineering feats of the 19th century (the DH) can it be happenstance that wawarsing leadership is leading us to the number one retail giant to become another statistic on "Wake Up WalMart"?

.More writing on the Wal.

Wal-Mart settles 63 wage lawsuits for $352M to $640M
Like this story? Share it with Yahoo! Buzz

Wal-Mart has settled 63 lawsuits claiming wage-and-hour violations, and the world's largest retailer will pay between $352 million and $640 million.

The settlement ends pending cases in federal court in Nevada and in several state courts. Two weeks ago Wal-Mart agreed to settle a class-action suit filed by Minnesota workers for $54.3 million.

Bath, New Paltz and many others have convinced WM to alter or cancel their plans to build. (Sprawl Busters).

Done deal is a euphamism for give it up.
Give it up is a euphamism for roll over and play dead.

First, Shoprite has joined the process as an independent ally!

Shoprite has hired Rudikoff Associates of Beacon to review the Walmart proposal, which has already submitted letters pointing out flaws and deficiencies in the proposal. Shoprite is backing the expenses of getting the needed expertise, and they are willing to LITIGATE if necessary!

WERD has also hired an independent environmental engineer to review the proposal as well, though he was able to use some of the legwork done by Rudikoff and the town's engineers, as Walmart was NOT cooperative in making a a copy of the site plans available (I already sent him a copy of the 270-page proposal, and other available info), so he had to wait until one was sent from the county planning department late last week, courtesy of Rudikoff Associates, who had to get their own copy.

So, our engineer also sent a letter to the planning board, similarly pointing out that the shortcomings of the plan, and its size, require a "positive declaration" by the PB, that is, an insistence that WM do a FULL Type 1 Environmental Impact Statement, which will take some time and expense on their part, but will answer many of the questions about just what impact WM WILL have on various areas, from water runoff, grading, asbestos abatement, traffic, lighting, police services, visual impact, architectural conformity, economic impact, etc.

While those welcoming Walmart at the PB hearing were basically emotional, irrelevant, and ill-informed ("JOBS! CONVENIENCE! PROGRESS!"), and not addressing what the PB CAN and MUST do in this process, we had a variety of speakers and submitted letters that focused on ONE issue... the need for a thorough and appropriate review by the PB, which only an EIS can ensure.

WERD, though it doesn't have the deep pockets of Shoprite (and certainly not those of Walmart*!), has raised over $3000 to make sure we have the engineering and legal help we need to navigate this process, and we've already received the kind of engineering help regarding the EIS process we couldn't have gotten otherwise. And most of the local funding has NOT come from those as anti-WM as I am, but who simply see the need to make sure the town is PROTECTED against large, powerful developers (who don't have OUR interests at heart, but only their own profits), so they were willing to support a REVIEW of the proposal to see where we STAND and what our OPTIONS are. But with Shoprite joining the process, even some of the former fence-sitters now see that we are not alone and must submit to being overwhelmed by the Borg. Resistance is NOT futile!

The PB's attorney has intimated that there will be no "fast track," as the SEQRA process can't be shortened, and even WM, by saying that they don't EXPECT to open before 2011, EVEN IF there's no significant opposition, seems to agree that there's a built-in time-table that even they can't destroy.

Besides, the economy's woes and the coming Depression will make the mindless and illogical growth of more WM stores where they don't make sense seem even more senseless, and I'm sure the stockholders will do as they did in 2007 and urge that the least likely stores to make real money be scrapped, and Napanoch has to be at the top of the list of questionable stores!

When the price of gas and oil richochets again in a few months, as it must (the current cheap prices are only due to contract futures holders having to firesale their way to liquidity by deleveraging their assets to make a quick buck at a loss; when that is over, the same geology and politics that saw production unable to meet demand this summer will be back in play) Walmart*'s model of an unsustainable "warehouse on wheels" and shipping 12,000 miles from China will become more than they can maintain, and they will eventually collapse under their own size and weight, as will many large entities by 2012.

There wasn't a newby in the place. He would have been a liability, an unappreciated distraction from what we understood had to be done.

After opening, newbies were hired and the turnover began. Between theft, physical distruction of goods and equipment and simply moving on the workforce deminished. Labor practices became known in Sullivan and replacements became more unusuall. Many do not want to work in those conditions. And we have the digression of what was once a good store to shop in. Finding knowledgeable help to make a purchase is a challenge.

Now that we have the shortcomings of Big Box down, when is it time to set aside watching WM and create a game plan to look for more localy owned business? look for a solutions more likely to listen to community branding, codes and ordinances?

The point is that for all the yowling about Walmart "creating" JOBS, just HOW MANY GOOD PAYING ones will WM actually OFFER to local persons? NOT AS MANY as the boosters think! And Walmart* STILL hasn't answered what the AVERAGE WAGE means by "average" (mode, mean, median?), because they lump in the HIGH wages of the OUTSIDE-DRAWN managers and other few full-timers getting higher salaries with the LOW-PAID part-timers to get that bogus "average" figure.

No, silly, a working person WITH benefits and such isn't going to QUIT their job to work at WM BY CHOICE; but what YOU and the other slow-to-learn denial-addicts seem to ignore is that they won't QUIT... because they will be FIRED or the business they work at or own will be FORCED TO CLOSE BY WALMART and THAT is all they will have left to locally choose from IF Walmart has its way!

Yes, a desperate community can't see beyond its nose. I read that MOST of those who lost their jobs were able to find replacement jobs, albeit not necessarily at the same wages or as nearby. What good is briefly having near-slave jobs at WM that have 50-200% annual turnover anyway? Since few seem to work there for long, won't they eventually have to FIND another job soon enough? So why not find that better job NOW, instead of waiting and praying until WM opens, if it does, in 2011? What do YOU expect them to do until 2011? Why not find a job that will not tear out their soul and leave them still in poverty and having to be shown BY WALMART how to apply for health and welfare benefits WE PAY FOR?!!!

And so, do you think it's a fair trade that kids get to have part-time jobs from the store that forces their parents to lose THEIR EXISTING JOBS?!! Must I remind you again that the Neumark study showed that, in looking at more than 3000 Walmarts over 30 years, the average Walmart DESTROYS 300 existing retail jobs in the county for each 200 jobs it "creates"? How is that a GOOD thing? Which of YOUR neighbors (assuming you even live near here) are YOU willing to throw under the bus so some teen can have a part-time job to cover non-essential purchases while his or her parents become jobless?

Shoprite is a REGIONAL chain with deep roots in the area. They never posed the kind of one-stop-shopping threat that WM does.

All competitors check the pricing in other stores, I've seen it all over. The problem is when you have a good quality product it's hard to have low prices and stay in business. Right now Peter's has the best quality food in the area and I sure hope they don't lose out because of some peoples ignorance or laziness.

There ARE laws against predatory practices by a deep-pocket business to compete unfairly with smaller businesses they wish to destroy. Walmart has been guilty of that offense repeatedly, but usually gets away with it, as they've gotten THAT big, bigger than Standard Oil, or A and P, or US Steel, or Microsoft.

2:18, how can ONE store (Shoprite) "monopolize" an area when ANOTHER store (Peters) exists that competes with them? Maybe you need to learn what the term MONOPOLY actually MEANS?

Again, I and others shop at both Peters and Shoprite, depending on the items and availability. And you STILL haven't proven "greed" on any local retailer's part, particularly as Walmart* is just about the "greediest" company on earth.

Unless the PB and the leverage found in the code or comp plan or SEQRA FORCE the developers to do ANYTHING outside of their cookie-cutter plans, WE can't "pick or choose" anything, or make them do ANYTHING they don't want to. Get it? They don't CARE about what WE NEED or WANT!!! THEY have determined the essential profit centers and that means GROCERIES, auto supplies, and drugs!

Now, some here think that if we could force a SIZE CAP (something I suggested to the Town Board two years ago, as dozens of other communities have done to protect themselves from the inherent impact of sheer bigness, but which they ignored), that the smaller size store would be less destructive, as they couldn't carry as much. I agree, to some extent; if we can't force them to simply pack up and go, a smaller store WOULD be less damaging, to a degree, but not completely so. Not unless they scaled down to Ames-size, about 50K s.f., which they would NEVER do.

Walmart*, the greedy bastards, only care about THEIR profits, NOT OUR NEEDS and protection from outside forces, so don't go expecting to pull a begging act on them and expecting them to acquiesce.

---

5:57, could you re-phrase your post into English?

---

Sorry, Noel, but Ellenville, for all its imperfection (and it's far better off than thousands of places in even worse shape), is NOT a "crack-infested section 8 village." But you are a barely-coherent bigot and blatantly-obsessive on this point.

Did you go to DOWNTOWN Monticello? It IS incredible how WM DID kill so much of the business THERE. And ELLENVILLE is to Napanoch as Monticello is to the Walmart shopping area. So, get real, eh?

Sure, there was a time when there were more local stores and activity (before the shopping malls in regional shopping centers, and the cars that made them possible to even exist, changed the way we shop), and more tourists, but there were also more bars and more fights, and there was plenty of grousing back whenever, too.

Look, no place is perfect, and I can list the shortcomings of Ellenville as much as anyone, except that mine are not based on myopic or bigoted obsessions, and I've been to more than enough places to put things in PERSPECTIVE.

And that perspective is that there are places FAR WORSE OFF in any number of ways than Ellenville is, and Ellenville has FAR MORE potential to weather the coming Depression... IF ONLY we'd stop clinging to a dying paradigm and see how we can pull together and PLAN for hard times in a contracting economy in which big box stores and shipping things long-distances simply won't work.

We have to think about LOCAL production for LOCAL needs, at a time when we won't be able to depend as much on distant sources for most things we now take for granted. We actually HAVE many of the basics to survive a crunch: pure water, arable land, sources of energy, and some talented persons who can help us LEARN how to make it work. But those seeking a quick fix based on 1990s models will not give up their wishful thinking that things can go back to a wasteful and self-indulgent lifestyle that can't be sustained in a world of fewer resources, global climate chaos, and too many people.

Who says that speaking your OPINION is speaking THE TRUTH? The phrase was "we have a crack infested section 8 village." Now, perhaps it's a matter of degree, but at what point does this over-the-top exaggeration become "the truth" as opposed to YOUR mere hyperventilated opinion absent any substantive support evidence and more specificity?

WHERE are we "known for crack" (outside of you febrile imagination)?

By Charlie Sorrel
December 29, 2008 , 8:10:05 AMCategories: iPhone

ATT is knocking out refurbished 8GB iPhones at $99 apiece, and 16GB models for $199. This news comes in at the exact same time that Walmart's iPhone goes official, at $197 for the 8GB handset.

That ATT is selling refurbs is nothing special -- both ATT and Apple are veterans of the refurb game and some great bargains can be had. That Walmart's iPhone price is not $99, as some gullible people believed, is equally non-shocking.

When one speaks of a house INFESTED with termites or roaches, one implies that the amount is SO HUGE that it imperils the health and safety of the house and its occupants, that it's an emergency requiring immediate and drastic measures. What evidence to the ordinary resident of Ellenville is there of something of THAT serious and critical and all-pervasive a nature? Do you have any idea WHAT percentage of housing in Ellenville IS section 8, or how it is SO noticeable that it has reached crisis proportions, along with your believed crack epidemic?

Look, when someone comes around with a big song and dance and some snake oil about how MUCH they will be doing to HELP US, start counting the silverware! Are you so naive as to think that their largesse is about HELPING US, rather than to MAXIMIZE their profits? Whether a store, casino, road rally, 250 ticky-tacky homes above Ellenridge, a meat-rendering plant or mushroom processing facility, you can bet the farm that WE are just a convenient place for THEM to exploit US as much as possible. Any benefits to US are secondary and collateral, no matter how they slice or dice it with a glad hand.

Now, if someone LOCAL, who already has made a COMMITMENT to the area, wants to start or expand a business, say, as Brian Culwell is NOW, as we speak, doing by moving into his new store across from St Mary's and St Andrews Church, lets give them every possible help... but I notice that little in the way of huzzahs and "fast tracking" has been bandied about THERE, even though HE lives here, and grew up here, and has made a commitment to STAY here. And HE will keep and SPEND more money HERE than WM ever will!

No, we must consider the MOTIVES and GOALS of anyone who wants to come INSIDE from OUTSIDE, and WEIGH the negatives against the positives, which is what the REVIEW process is all about. Calling it "this environmental thing" and dismissing it with a handwave and mind-reading our motives simply ignores WHY we have zoning and boards and LAWS and PROCESSES -- to prevent the kind of outrageous consequences of NEGLECTING the long-range and hidden impacts of ANY project. Remember when the stream in Napanoch ran with colors? Do you know how many un-monitored dumps in the area are or will be leaching their poisons into the acquifers for years to come? Do you want to leave our community naked to anyone who comes along for THEIR purposes, seeking to privatize benefits to THEM, while SOCIALIZING the costs and effects to US?

THAT is why there's a SEQRA process, and it covers MORE than "spotted owls" or water runoff, but the visual, economic, social, and community impacts as well. IF WM passes muster, and the EIS shows little or no negative impact, or less than what the community feels are the trade-off benefits, FINE, that is how it works. But you DON'T give the keys to the town to every grifter and glad-hander who talks big but sees us the way a pick-pocket sees a holy man... as just POCKETS to be picked.

These "obstacles" as you would call them are PRUDENT questions and requirements to show that the developer is prepared to DEAL WITH potential problems, rather than stick it to the taxpayers down the road, or even up front. It's not a "smokescreen"... IT'S THE LAW! How many communities are NOW stuck with the mess left behind by an irresponsible developer who took the money while the getting was good, but skipped when things became less so?

Walmart* deserves NOTHING for wanting to TAKE as much money from us as they can and siphon it AWAY from the community! How is THAT helping US reach prosperity? Again, it's NOT to help us but to enrich THEM at our expense!

Comparing a motel to Walmart* is ludicrous. Nobody is saying there can't be FAIR competition to meet a need. What Walmart* does is PREDATORY DESTRUCTION of entire communities by being a "one-stop shopping experience" and "category killer" that takes no prisoners and ELIMINATES competition. Again, which of YOUR neighbors, assuming you even live near here, are YOU willing to throw under the bus to buy cheap chinese crap?

How do elected?? officials choose management that loses an antique fire engine, decimal points and digits???

How do buildings remain empty while youth need a place to be and others are homeless???

How does one love Ellenville and fasilitate these things and have to vacate himself at the planning board while we determine a future vision???

It's called "post hoc, ergo propter hoc." The fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc occurs when something is assumed to be the cause of an event merely because it happened before that event. For example:

"The Soviet Union collapsed after instituting state atheism. Therefore we must avoid atheism for the same reasons."

This is another type of false cause fallacy.

Now, did it EVER occur to you that WALMART, rather than BRINGING businesses to an area, GOES to where GROWTH is already happening or ABOUT to? And when a NEW shopping center opens, businesses LEAVE the old (and it may only be a few years old!) one and hurry to be close to the new "and improved" one, because the old one rapidly turns into yesterday's news?

BTW, I've certainly seen WMs standing by themselves with nothing around them; the land may have been cheap, and there simply wasn't enough MONEY in the area to SUPPORT MULTIPLE STORES. And in this area, as I keep trying to educate you, if ONE STORE sucks $1-1.5 million OUT of the community each week when that is already about what is spent locally NOW, THERE ISN'T enough cash pool in the community to support THAT store and the existing stores AND MORE new stores.

Walmarts* CLOSE more existing businesses than they bring! Some of the ones that move, as I said, are the SAME stores changing location to catch some of the traffic, but THAT DOESN'T necessarily work; since WM is a "one stop shopping experience," they try to get you in WM FIRST, take all your money, and then you have neither the time nor money to shop elsewhere. Yes, I suppose your chances MAY be better if you are VISIBLE near the new WM than forgotten in the old shopping mall or downtown dustbowl, but it's no guarantee. Again, Walmart* sizes up where the growth is heading and goes THERE; the growth was happening ANYWAY and WM is there to capitalize on it, NOT create it!

4:36, the convenience OF driving only a few minutes has you revealing a likely truth I've been pointing out; instead of saving up your travel to one trip a month to Kingston or Middletown or Monticello, a conveniently-placed WM might have you driving there several times a week, so the TOTAL mileage you rack up might be NO LESS each month!

Other businesses from outside are smarter than to fantasize that they can move into an area being swallowed up by WM and still hope to pick up the crumbs. They KNOW there's a limited supply of disposable cash, particularly in a depressed area, and once WM vacuums up the lion's share, what is left for THEM? Don't assume that the money will come from OUTSIDE shoppers; there's no significant influx of tourists as in some other places to make up the difference of money leaving to Arkansas!

So, how does sending MORE money, through MORE big boxes, OUTSIDE the local economy give us "a boost"? (I guess you must think that importing MORE crap from China and other overseas countries, increasing our debt and negative balance of trade, and losing more jobs here, gives America "a boost" the same way?) Explain it logically, PLEASE, because I can't see it!

So, you OPINE (just putting "really" in front of "think" doesn't make your OPINION any more valid!) that WM will NOT be bad for other businesses in the area. Well, whoopdeedoo for YOU and YOUR thinking! From YOUR lips to God's ears, and I'm sure the other local businesses are now SO relieved that an anonymous cipher is so cavalier as to leave the future of THEIR businesses to the ignorant, ill-informed mere blatant assertion, absent ANY evidence to support it, that they'll do OK!

See, the local businesses, who have a better handle on THEIR economic reality, aren't as sanguine as you, who are clearly clueless. How many studies must I post that show that YOUR fantasy wishful thinking and denial is NOT what most communities have experienced? That for each WM, TWO local supermarkets on average fold, that poverty and crime goes up, wages go down, 300 jobs are LOST for each 200 WM "creates," and downtowns routinely get boarded up in the aftermath?

All the best "customer service" in the world can't compete with a deep-pocketed behemoth that will undercut you for as long as it takes to destroy you. WM doesn't believe in "competition" either; their goal is to DESTROY any potential competition and be the one left standing, certainly in a community of this size.

We should be looking to find out how to maximize IMPORT SUBSTITUTION by becoming more self-sufficient and self-reliant, not LESS SO, which becoming dependent on MORE OUTSIDE megacorps leads to. We will only be able to maintain a permanent carrying capacity of roughly what was sustainable in the pre-oil era of the mid-19th century when the spit hits the fan, or no more than 5-10 persons in the town that can be supported by existing water and potential food and energy production. To "grow" for the sake of growth is like putting too many persons in a lifeboat; you risk overturning the whole thing and losing all aboard.

Over-consumption and over-spending has been revealed as a dead end; we can't borrow our way out of debt, and we can't "grow" our way out of contracting economies and diminishing resources.

I didn't say anyone SAID WM is the solution; I simply SAID WM is not the solution. It isn't.

When the SH*T hits, and we'll get the first spray in 2009, it will make the SPIT of 2008 look mild by comparison, and even comparisons to the Great Depression will seem insufficient.

Besides, TWO of those have become a REGIONAL shopping center, each supported by a LARGER population base than we have here. They can HANDLE more stores, and the inclusion of a NEW large store doesn't affect the available cash pool as much as ONE large box store will to OUR little economy. It is, as I call it, like dropping a cinder block on a chess board to plunk ONE $1-1.5-million-per-week vacuum cleaner into this small and shrinking market in Wawarsing.

I've just heard from people who've been to Ticonderoga, where a Walmart went in not too long ago. The downtown has gone from a vibrant little city to a ghost-town. There are hundreds of examples across the country of this same sad story; to deny it is either to live in delusional denial or perhaps you are a paid flack for WM trying to get people to not dig out the truth for themselves.

Talking about the stores NEAR the WM in Middletown just confirms what I said about the SPRAWL OUTSIDE the CITY OF MIDDLETOWN, the downtown of which is nearly moribund, certainly from the days when it too was a vibrant city (and the same could be said for Newburgh or Kingston).

Oh, this all happened before Walmart came, as the various outlying malls, from Lloyds and the old mall when Sears and Kmart were there, on to the Galleria and beyond, all kept drawing shoppers outside the downtown, going back decades. Sure, Walmart came to Middletown AFTER over 100 other stores were already there in the outlying sprawl, so it didn't CREATE the problem, or BRING other stores either (see earlier post about roosters causing sun to rise!), but THAT isn't what WE are looking at here!

You are still confusing a LARGE, regional shopping center having a population base way larger than ours with our different reality. To believe that a smart exec from Home Depot or Lowes or Staples would "open up nearby" to a WM in a small, depressed market like Wawarsing, when they'd KNOW that WM would already suck up most of the available cash before they had a chance to get established, it to engage in inane fantasy. (Tso says over TWO DOZEN stores ALREADY REJECTED coming to his proposed mall... because THEY ALREADY KNEW that the small numbers here couldn't justify the gamble. Which means THEY are smarter than YOU, which is why THEY are making the big bucks and you are an anonymous cipher. That WM would even consider opening in the middle of nowhere -- and THEY TOO originally rejected coming here! -- is more a matter of filling a hole in their map and preventing others from getting a toehold.)

4:1, you're another who can't even see the glass half-full, but have decided it's empty, which will come as a surprise to anyone with objective eyes to see a NEW ACE opening this week, a new Mexican restaurant, a NEW Towne Plaza, and MANY long-time, even expanding stores, like Thornton's, Matthews, regional draws like Aroma Thyme, a top regional theatre, and other stores that meet NEEDS as well as WANTS.

One night last week, coming back from Aroma Tyme, I saw over a dozen cars parked on that block at 6 PM! Most were there for the tawkwando, but that alone bespeaks that we are hardly a ghost-town if we can fill a martial arts class for kids downtown on a Tuesday evening!

Monticello was LESS dead than now, but the argument goes that Walmarts REVIVE dead or dying towns, and that simply hasn't happened for downtown Monticello. Walmart will NOT revitalize Ellenville, or Wawarsing, but can only siphon MORE dollars from marginal businesses.

It's a vicious cycle; whiny gripers like YOU complain that it's a ghost-town (which it isn't) but you won't spend money here to keep it from BECOMING one and so you complain when stores close... thanks to YOUR lack of support!

Nor do I deny that there's something rotten at the core of our community (but not unlike just about every other community with few exceptions today), and it can't just be attributed to officials, though a dead fish rots from the head. There's a malaise and a hollowness, an emptiness that mirrors the national emptiness, a loss of purpose or goal, a feeling that we HAVE missed the wagon, a dread that things are NOT getting better, and may get worse (they will, THEY WILL!), that we lack the will and energy to fix things, and that only outside saviors (with hollow promises and their own agendas) can help us, and that it's THE OTHER GUY'S FAULT, instead of looking at OUR OWN defects, including having bought into the American myths of unearned riches, wishing on a star, spending beyond one's means to keep up with imaginary standards pushed on us by a whoring media, and ceasing to function as engaged, informed citizens in a commonwealth of democratic values to become infantile, slavish consumers only, who confuse wants with needs, and can't even distinguish meaningful wants from those handed to us from the media and their paymasters. If our officials are inferior, it's because WE don't care enough to change them, or to seek out better ones from the start; we have given up OUR power and OUR control of OUR political and economic destiny for a mess of porridge. We keep thinking of government as IT or THEM, when it should be US, and that failure is why the American Experiment begun in the 18th century has officially failed, only most don't know it yet, or even care. We have a krypto-fascist-plutocratic-oligarchy that is three foodless days away from becoming a martial law police state, and then you'll be rushing to be first in line to the FEMA buses heading to the detention camps already built to handle the upcoming unrest so you can get your ration of government food.

See, WM doesn't have to have a restaurant, or lessons, or plays, or anything in particular to cut into the income of EACH of those and ALL other local businesses that depend on LOCAL money (ironically, Aroma Thyme and Shadowland DO a good bit of their business from NON-locals and those who are not dependent on Walmart, so they may be least affected!). So, if you have ANY business in Ellenville or Wawarsing that depends on local monies, you SHOULD be afraid of Walmart*. If you CARE about the future of this community, you should be very afraid of Walmart*.

Steve, Your right about Wal-Mart. Every single point you make is spot on and backed up by countless studies. You have spent countless hours gathering FACTS and have laid them out time and again and yet many people still dont understand them, how frustrating.

Unlike you I dont have the patience to explain the obvious. If people dont understand what Wal-Mart is all about and how it will have an overall negative impact on the community, fine.

My purpose is not to change anyones mind. I simply NEEDED to agree with a man who knows this subject dead to rights. Thank you.

When most of what is posted here can't address the FACTS of the issue, but has to devolve into unsubstantiated and irrelevant personal attacks, it's nice to see someone who can FOCUS on the kernel of the case: that *I* have done my research, and present my case logically and with support evidence, whereas the opposition has mostly bloviated denial, wishful thinking, and ad hominem slurs.

My, my, is the best that "rising star" can come up with to "refute" me is point out that my wife was nice enough to post a video of me performing my rendition of John McCormack's melodramatic early 20th century recording of "I Hear You Calling Me" at the first Aroma Thyme Open Mic way back in 2007, to kick off my series "Music Appreciation 201: A Century of Schmaltz!: A fond look at 100 years of overly-sentimental songs of longing, love, and loss, and a tribute to the great singers who made them popular."??? How puerile of him or her!

And the barely literate anonymous twit at 9:57 -- who seems to have learned English from Frankenstein's Monster, Tonto, or Tarzan, to bring up the old Saturday Night live sketches -- simply makes unsubstantiated blatant assertions without ONE bit of evidence other than to claim the ability to read the minds of hundreds of persons, including me, yet can't even point to ONE example of me being wrong and then explaining WHY that is so and then proving it with logic or evidence. How lame! Cowardice and stupidity and disingenuous your problem. Ugh!

Keep it up, clowns! All you do is convince those like Bruce Turk who CARE about the community, and who aren't afraid to IDENTIFY themselves, to speak out against YOUR pathetic attempts to discredit me or my posts.

I would love to just burble with positive glurgs, but there are too many serious concerns to ignore; I'm positive when necessary to be, to counteract the bilious whining that goes on here, but everything is NOT hunky-dory, and sometimes one must be the bearer of bad news, or just question the "conventional 'wisdom'."

I would love to embrace and not bicker, but, then, YOU are not the one being sniped at HERE by anonymous cowards, so it's rather facile to just sing Kumbaya to those being hit by brickbats or those throwing them. Whether the anonymous twits are "typical" of this community I can't say, but they ARE typical of THIS FORUM.

So you don't know what I think, or know, or what I care about, but you have the audacity to PRESUME; this is classic whistling in the dark past the graveyard... if you can't respond to the FACTS and refute my argument, just make more blatant assertions that not only SAY that "Krulick is wrong" but go into the realm of the bizarre, claiming (as this illiterate twerp did) that EVERYONE "knows" that I'm wrong, including those who AGREE with me, and that EVEN *I* "know" I'M WRONG! What chutzpah!

No, twit, SELFISH is only thinking of ONE'S SELF and NOT the community as a whole; THAT is the thinking that will destroy the Village AND the Town. The Community comprises the Town and Village, though one can't deny that the Village is a MAJOR part OF the Town -- its business and service center.

But businesses in the whole Town, and even bleeding over into Rochester and Mamakating, will be adversely affected too, by Walmart* or similar big boxes. The Town doesn't "grow" because a big box store sucks $1-1.5 million OUT OF IT EACH WEEK! The Village doesn't benefit because sales are displaced to a NON-locally-owned megastore OUTSIDE the Village.

Besides, we are in a severe CONTRACTING mode -- locally, nationally, and globally; the words "growth" and "economic development" will seem like cruel jokes in a year or two when everyone will be scrambling just to hang on to what they HAVE. We should be looking to create a viable, sustainable, steady-state economy that can support the carrying capacity that a post-oil economy limits us to. But, I'll bet our verbally-challenged friend has no idea what I'm talking about.

I am a resident of the Village, and a former Trustee, who was on the Village Board when this story broke, so, of course, as a person responsible TO the citizens of the Village, my first civic obligation then was to see if this presented a threat TO the Village. It did, even as the Mayor burbled about how great it would be (because HE was the attorney making the deal for the landowner!). But, as former editor of Wawarsing.Net, and as one who sees the inter-relatedness of the Town and Village, I have always been a proponent of the two polities working together in greater communication, cooperation, and, where feasible, consolidation.

Sharon, shopping at a Napanoch WM would NOT be buying LOCALLY! At least 95% of the sales revenue goes overnight to Bentonville, Arkansas, not to be seen here again! They don't put money back into the community as REAL local buisnesses do. The Village will see NO property tax or sales tax! And WM will try to scam the state out of as much sales and income tax as possible.

Be honest. Can you not buy everything YOU NEED on a regular basis locally? You make a blanket generalization "Now you cannot buy locally" and this is not true. I can buy everything I NEED locally, and I'm hardly unique.

So, I ask YOU as I've asked all others who make this bizarre claim, HOW does a Walmart* in Napanoch bring the village of ELLENVILLE back to life? PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THAT WORKS! I bet you can't even try! HOW does a megastore IN NAPANOCH (2 miles outside the Village) that has the goal of "one-stop-shopping-experience" and siphoning $1-1.5 million per week out of the local economy increase local shopping choices IN ELLENVILLE?

The only way Ellenville will "thrive" in the coming Depression is to stop trying to bring back a "Golden Age" that can't be retrieved, as the age of Happy Motoring, and Flying the Friendly Skies, and Blue Light Specials will be over soon enough, and instead establish a steady-state, sustainable, locally-based economy that can maintain the limited carrying capacity that can be supported by local resources.

How do you know the Honesdale WM is doing more than just hanging on? There are over 300 vacant WM shells throughout the country; still vacant after years, and WM won't sell them or tear them down. Oh, and if they manage to destroy all potential competition here, so they get their $1-1.5 million per week in sales, they may "survive" here, too, at the expense of dozens of EXISTING LOCAL businesses.

I'm so glad another one who speaks from her lips to God's ears has guaranteed that "the small stores here have made their roots they will do fine." Based on WHAT logic or FACTS do you say that? THEY are not as sanguine about their fate as YOU are, and THEY know more about their current status and how WM would challenge them than YOU seem to. HOW will they do fine when the lion's share of local sales will drift over to WM? Do you think they can stand a loss of 20%, 15%, even 10% of sales? THEY DON'T!

Why, you, alone, based on your own words, will be thrilled to shop at the Napanoch WM, so WHAT will you continue to buy at the other stores here, and WHY, if WM will beat the prices? How can they compete with WM's predatory price-cutting?

And, no, WM will NOT bring "other people here to shop"! FROM WHERE? WHY? Explain why someone more than 20 miles from Napanoch will come HERE when there's a LARGER, LESS COSTLY WM closer to them in every direction? (Since the others are in REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTERS where people have dozens of shopping choices, there is still SOME competition, which keeps the WM prices lower than they'll be in Napanoch AFTER the Napanoch WM destroys the local competition.)

Finally, you use the Joel Levitz inanity about "it is worth a try at least give it a chance," as if building a multi-million dollar WM is a TRIAL engagement, that if we aren't happy with it, it will just pack up and leave! This is NOT something you "try"! IF WM comes, and IF it does EXACTLY what it's done in hundreds of other communities, within months it will cause significant local businesses to shrink or close, and within years it will leave us a ghost-town, the very thing you fear. And THEN, how do we fix THAT? Reincarnate the dead businesses?

Now, I have given PLENTY of reasons why I think the community will DO WORSE if WM comes. Did you fail to read them? OR did you fail to comprehend them? I can't say that the community will do BETTER in any way under any circumstances, because there's nothing to go on absent any POSITIVE stimulus, but ALL the available evidence I've mentioned or linked to is rather consistent in showing that our community will DO WORSE if WM DOES come here.

Why don't you check THAT out and try to refute THAT?!!! Since the "line of thinking" you present is YOUR line and not mine, it's rather "weird" that you can't follow YOUR OWN "weird" line!

Why don't YOU show, with evidence and-or logic how YOUR claim is supported? Just spell out a viable scenario that shows how the community will "do better" when ONE giant megacorp is suddenly siponing $1-1.5 million per WEEK from our small and shrinking economy, when, as studies show, for each TWO jobs WM "creates" (actually displaces, as the don't "create" any new product or service that didn't already exist), THREE existing retail jobs are DESTROYED, and likely dozens of businesses that either directly compete with WM in the categories WM has become the big kahuna in, or simply compete for that limited $1-1.5 million cash pool.

Your next strawman claim is bogus, and NOT anything I "said," or claimed. Yes, we have lost much of our manufacturing due to MOST production having moved offshore, but it was surely WM, which FORCED others to follow their lead when they pioneered this outsourcing momentum or else they'd be at a disadvantage, and now, for example imports at least $15 BILLION of Chinese goods per year, that is the biggest evildoer in this regard.

Putting "claim" in quotes doesn't REFUTE what I've said, nor the support evidence I've provided. Why do you think I put the source, author, and, where available, the LINK to the evidence, so even cranks like YOU can look it up for yourselves. And calling it "crap" doesn't make it "crap." Do you believe the studies I've cited and linked to don't exist? Is this outright denial the best you can come up with?

Are you SERIOUS? Try this: "If Al Capone and organized crime is so bad for communities, why did they do so well?" Really, are you THAT thick that you can't understand that parasites and pirates and exploiters can do FANTASTIC for themselves by DRAINING the wealth out of the communities they rape?!!

And, they're NOT doing "so well" any more, and even they admit things are NOT going as well as they'd like. As times get tougher, they will hurt like everyone else; and their big drop of stock value in one day SINGLE-HANDEDLY drove down the Dow!

I don't HAVE to pat myself on the back, ya patronizing strawslinger; I simply present the logic and FACTS YOU can't deal with, so you make it, as usual, a PERSONAL attack against me, and, I'll guess, YOU are likely PROJECTING some sort of personal hatred, jealousy, or vendetta against ME that, IF you'd identify yourself, would be only too obvious!

No, Sparky boy, I have NO vendetta against Walmart*. I simply did the research, and being an intelligent and community-minded person, I concluded that they presented a likely threat to our economic well-being and made all that info available to anyone who wants to take their own head out of the sand and see for themselves.

Why should *I* or "we" take what "you" claim you have or don't have against "me" seriously when "we" don't know WHO YOUR ARE, and you won't identify yourself so "we" can decide for "ourselves" whether the REAL PERSON behind the wall throwing brickbats just might have some personal reason for these snipes? Why should we take YOUR mere unsubstantiated claims about MY so-called vendettas and other bizarre opinions as FACT, when YOU blithely dismiss any claims against YOU absent any proof to support your claims?

Do you even KNOW the difference between FACT and OPINION? As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, "We all have the right to our own opinions but NOT to our own FACTS."! Your putting "facts" in quotes doesn't dismiss them AS facts! THAT is why I post LINKS to them, so YOU and others can decided for youselves whether they are valid and substantive. YOU present NO facts here, ONLY opinions.

And just repeating your personal unsupported opinion that *I* have a "vendetta" (do you even know what THAT means?) doesn't make it any more a FACT than the first time you opined that blatant, baseless assertion. Why would I even be jealous of a destructive, exploitative, immoral corporation? It doesn't even make sense! Usually, one is jealous of a PERSON that one can be compared to on a variety of comparable traits; how does this relate to a corporation with which a person has absolutely nothing in common?

Sometimes low prices aren't enough. The outlook for retailers has turned so bleak that even Wal-Mart (WMT) is feeling the effects of the consumer slowdown. The world's largest retailer had looked like it was actually benefiting from the economic slowdown as consumers flocked to its low-
priced offerings. Wal-Mart's stock posted a gain in 2008, one of just a handful of large-company stocks to do so. But on January 8th, Wal-Mart warned that fourth-quarter profits could be 12% below previous estimates.

The stock market was expecting weak retail results from the holiday season, but not necessarily from Wal-Mart. Analysts and investors noted that Wal-Mart customers were buying necessities, such as groceries, rather than luxury items. Also, discount stores were attracting cash-strapped consumers who otherwise might prefer more upscale shopping venues.

But Morgan Stanley (MS) analyst Gregory Melich notes that half of Wal-Mart's sales aren't in groceries but in discretionary items. "If those categories are weak, profits can be weak," he wrote in a note on Jan. 8.

One problem for Wal-Mart: Other retailers, such as Nordstrom (JWN) or Limited Brands (LTD), offered big discounts of their own to attract stingy consumers. Retailers with heavy promotions may have won customers at the expense of "everday value" chains like Wal-Mart, says Robert W. Baird Co. consumer and retail analyst David Cumberland.

Hunting for Value

Also, according to Wayne Titche, chief investment officer of AMBS Investments, consumers may be trading down to cheaper merchandise amid a weakening economy, but they're also looking for good value. He wonders if Wal-Mart discounted the wrong items in some cases.

"It's not just trading down. It's perceived value for the money" that matters, Titche says. Wal-Mart garnered much publicity with its "Black Friday" offerings of deeply discounted flat-screen TVs. But low-quality televisions at a discount won't attract as many buyers as discounts on high-quality TVs, Titche notes. "Just offering merchandise that's cheaper doesn't get someone to buy it."

The stock market was expecting weak retail results from the holiday season, but not necessarily from Wal-Mart. Analysts and investors noted that Wal-Mart customers were buying necessities, such as groceries, rather than luxury items. Also, discount stores were attracting cash-strapped consumers who otherwise might prefer more upscale shopping venues.

But Morgan Stanley (MS) analyst Gregory Melich notes that half of Wal-Mart's sales aren't in groceries but in discretionary items. "If those categories are weak, profits can be weak," he wrote in a note on Jan. 8.

One problem for Wal-Mart: Other retailers, such as Nordstrom (JWN) or Limited Brands (LTD), offered big discounts of their own to attract stingy consumers. Retailers with heavy promotions may have won customers at the expense of "everday value" chains like Wal-Mart, says Robert W. Baird Co. consumer and retail analyst David Cumberland.

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After its disappointing December sales report, Wal-Mart shares fell 7.5% on Jan. 8, to close at 51.38. Adding to investors' disappointment was weakness in Wal-Mart's Sam's Club warehouse chain and a drop in sales overseas due to the rising U.S. dollar.

"The current economy remains challenging for all businesses, and retailers have already seen customers pull back on discretionary spending," said Wal-Mart chief financial officer Tom Schoewe in a statement. "Consumers are very focused on value and necessities."

The question for Wal-Mart and other retailers is how long the consumer slump will last.

http:(slash)(slash)www.businessweek.com(slash)investor(slash)content(slash)jan2009(slash)pi2009018(underline)275086.htm

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I see the strawslinging goes on... I don't vouch for the accuracy of what Business Week says or a Morgan Stanley analyst. It's THEIR opinions (based on the FACTS they cite, which YOU can look up on a third-party site, if you wish), but, unlike YOU, THEY identify themselves and have a track record, and YOU and everyone can look it up and make your own decision based on your opinion of the source.

So, when will YOU identify yourself, explain WHY you show such animus to ME as a person, and answer my questions, challenges, and address the points and arguments *I* made, rather than continuing to ignore them?

Sorry, but if it isn't about YOU, then why is it about ME? Why keep attacking ME, instead of dealing with what "it's about," which is the issue of Walmart* and its impact on the local economy? Because YOU CAN'T do anything else, it would seem, or you would have by now!

So, if it IS about my "quotes" (How cute! Just put "quotes" IN "quotes" and you magically make them NOT valid! NOT! See, if you can't REFUTE what they say, or offer superior contrary evidence, you lose the debate by default, as you continue to do.) why don't you ADDRESS THEM? WHAT in them is erroneous?

And continuing to say *I* have a "vendetta" against WM, when your very definition PROVES that no such thing is even possible in the REAL world, just shows your lack of imagination. Just repeating false nonsense doesn't make it more true!

I've given the REASONS why I believe WM is bad for a community like ours, but YOU can't be bothered to deal with THOSE points, can you? So you make up silly "vendetta" claims, and then, incredibly, post a definition that undermines your entire claim. What a bozo!

Now, why does wanting to prevent a predatory parasite that DESTROYS the economies of a small community equal "trying to stop progress"? What is "progress" about siphoning the bulk of a community's wealth OUT of that community, destroying dozens of businesses and hundreds of existing jobs? Why, how is that different than the colonial powers of centuries ago raping the resources of indigenous peoples? Was THAT progress for THOSE local communities? See, you are so blinded by silly mantras and knee-jerk phrases like "progress" that it would seem you never stop to consider what the term even means! Or am I wrong? Why don't you explain how a money-grabbing mega-corporation that uses out-dated and unsustainable practices is "progress" for us?

Oh, and, finally, strawslinger, the reasons are FAR more than JUST because WM has clothes made in China; IF you had been reading and comprehending what I've posted you'd have known that.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.