Just two years before we had been doing so well. We were able to purchase our home with a small down payment and our mortgage payment was only about one hundred dollars more than our previous monthly rent had been. With the tax savings we felt like we were ahead of the game. We didnt take expensive vacations, had only one car payment, and lived well within our means. So what happened?

My wife lost her job first. She was a manager at HYDRO and they closed. She was a hard worker and knew she would get good references from both that company and the one she had worked at previously. We both thought that he would find a new position within two to three months. She spent every morning contacting companies, making calls and sending our resumes. We canceled a trip we had planned and cut down on as many expenses as we could.

Then I lost my job. My company was relocating out of the state and I was one of the last to find out. My work was more specialized, being a doctor and all, so I knew it would take longer to find a new position. I knew that I would probably need more training. But my company had given me a three month severance package so we still felt that everything would be alright. But weeks turned into months and finally we didnt know where to turn.

We had paid off our credit card debt before we bought our home. We were proud of the fact that we didnt owe money to anyone except for our house. We even tried to get a second mortgage but now that we were both unemployed we were quickly turned down. One afternoon I was driving around trying to think about what to do next. That is when I remembered that I had received a credit card from Wal-Mart the month before. I had put the card in my pocket but had not planned on using it. But as I thought about my family and our situation I changed my mind.

I drove up 209 and drove up to the area where the Sams Club and Wal-Mart stores were. I filled up my basket with fresh fruits and vegetables, bakery goods, meat and cheese for sandwiches, ground meat and chicken, canned goods, paper towels, and many other items that I needed for my family. I even found a suit that I could wear to a job interview the following week. It felt good to know that I would be bringing all of these things home to my family.

I looked around at the other shoppers. I wondered if they were having a tough time financially or if they just shopped here on a regular basis. I got in line to pay and pulled out my shiny, new Wal-Mart card. When I gave it to the cashier he asked me if I wanted any cash back. I took twenty dollars that I would use for the kids school lunches and to give to my wife so that she would have some money in her pocket.

When I pulled up in my driveway my wife was outside bring in our mail. She helped me bring in all of the groceries and we sat down together to talk about what had happened. Including all of the food, the new suit, I had spent about one hundred dollars. The best part was that we would not have to pay for it all at once.

This letter is from a professional ezine writer and real estate broker from California, Connie Ragen Green; here's the original, so see how the bogus and disreputable "Lombard" has modified it to make it seem like a local story!:

Almost a year ago I found myself in a difficult predicament. Both my husband and I had been laid off from our jobs and we had two young children, his elderly mother living with us and a mortgage to pay. We were broke and running out of ideas.

Just two years before this happened we had been doing so well. We were able to purchase our home with a small down payment and our mortgage payment was only about one hundred dollars more than our previous monthly rent had been. With the tax savings we felt like we were ahead of the game. We didnt take expensive vacations, had only one car payment, and lived well within our means. So what happened?

My husband lost his job first. He was a manager at a manufacturing plant in our town and they made some changes within the company. He was a hard worker and knew he would get good references from both that company and the one he had worked at previously. We both thought that he would find a new position within two to three months. He spent every morning contacting companies, making calls and sending our resumes. We canceled a trip we had planned and cut down on as many expenses as we could.

Then I lost my job. My company was relocating out of the state and I was one of the last to find out. My work was more specialized so I knew it would take longer to find a new position. I knew that I would probably need more training. But my company had given me a three month severance package so we still felt that everything would be alright. But weeks turned into months and finally we didnt know where to turn.

We had paid off our credit card debt before we bought our home. We were proud of the fact that we didnt owe money to anyone except for our house. We even tried to get a second mortgage but now that we were both unemployed we were quickly turned down. One afternoon I was driving around trying to think about what to do next. That is when I remembered that I had received a credit card from Wal-Mart the month before. I had put the card in my purse but had not planned on using it. But as I thought about my family and our situation I changed my mind.

I turned at the next intersection and drove up to the area where the Sams Club and Wal-Mart stores were. My first stop was at the gas station. I filled up my tank and paid with my Wal-Mart card. It felt good to have a full tank of gas. I had been putting in ten dollars at a time for more than two months now. Then I entered the store. It was new and the aisles were wide. I went up and down each one, looking for the best deals on everything.

I filled up my basket with fresh fruits and vegetables, bakery goods, meat and cheese for sandwiches, ground meat and chicken, canned goods, paper towels, and many other items that I needed for my family. I even found a blouse that I could wear to a job interview the following week. It felt good to know that I would be bringing all of these things home to my family.

I looked around at the other shoppers. I wondered if they were having a tough time financially or if they just shopped here on a regular basis. I got in line to pay and pulled out my shiny, new Wal-Mart card. When I gave it to the cashier he asked me if I wanted any cash back. I took twenty dollars that I would use for the kids school lunches and to give to my husband so that he would have some money in his pocket.

When I pulled up in my driveway my husband was outside bring in our mail. He helped me bring in all of the groceries and we sat down together to talk about what had happened. Including all of the food, the new blouse, and the full tank of gasoline I had spent about one hundred and fifty dollars. The best part was that we would not have to pay for it all at once.

When everyone else had lost faith in us, Wal-Mart had been there for us. We are both working now but I will never forget my experience with Wal-Mart. I love you and appreciate your help, Wal-Mart. I hope everyone understands that you are there for us when others are not.

----

But now comes a new round of Wal-Mart hysteria, and it seems that, after dozens of articles, letters, and posts by me going back over a year and a half, and a website chock-full of FACTS about Wal-Mart (www. W-E-R-D.org), the deluded and wishfully-thinking are back in force, ignoring reality for some combination of fantasy salvation on the one hand they believe a Wal-Mart offers, and denial of the wreckage a Wal-Mart usually leaves in its wake. Sadly, there are some applauding its arrival, ignorant of the FACTS.

So, I encourage everyone to go back in the archives and RE-read (if they ever read them in the first place) my previous comments, and go to the WERD website (though I haven't bothered to update it since the WM topic cooled down, what's there is still valid, and the links to OTHER sites include up-to-date new stuff), but here's some comments on the above and a summary of what everyone should remember:

A WM will NOT make anyone's "business blossom" here! There's no evidence that a gigantic black hole that is designed to suck $1.5 million or more per week out of the local economy, send it straight to Arkansas, and put little or nothing back INTO the local economy in any way, is good for anyone else's local business. It drains money OUT of the local economy, meaning LESS cash to spend in YOUR local stores.

It will NOT "reinvigorate the area" here, any more than it did for Monticello or thousands of other small towns that found that WM was an illusion of "growth" for them, as it forced the premature closings of groceries, pharmacies, hardware stores, clothing stores, florists, opticians, auto supply stores, and more, DIRECTLY by undercutting them UNTIL they were destroyed (then, as a monopoly, they can jack up the prices again), and this had a secondary effect on businesses that depended on the first tier and the general local economy (banks, lawyers, accountants, newspapers, printers, restaurants, etc.)

I've already posted the studies that show that, ON AVERAGE, for each two WM jobs "created," THREE existing retail jobs within the county ARE DESTROYED!!! That's a NET LOSS of jobs! I've also posted studies that showed how counties with a WM show higher poverty than counties that DON'T get one. Plus increased crime (the Town has no police dept.; who will respond to an average of FOUR police calls per day for muggings, rapes, check fraud, etc. that is all too common at WMs?), cost for local infrastructure and services (WM in Napanoch would pay NO village taxes, would pay what little sales tax it has to to Kingston, NOT Wawarsing, and would use one or more of various schemes to avoid paying it's fair share of town and state taxes, leaving local taxpayers to foot the bills), noise and light pollution (trucks running behind the store all hours of the night, and bright lights shining into homes in the area), a history of eco-pollution, worker mistreatment, union-busting, low-wages, low benefits, sexism, racism, ageism, etc.

AS for traffic, the myth of increased traffic can't stand up to logic and simple geography. The only traffic that will go by the WM are the SAME persons that ALREADY go by that spot now, either to go to and from work, or to shop at EXISTING STORES!!! All that would happen is that they would go by there MORE OFTEN with likely traffic congestion more frequent. But since it's already the SAME EXACT LOCAL persons who NOW go by the SAME LOCAL STORES, why would adding a WM to the area make those people WHO ARE NOT STOPPING AT CERTAIN LOCAL STORES NOW, even as they drive past them over and over, sometimes EVERY DAY, stop later, particularly as WM is designed to BE a one-stop shop that answers ALL your purchasing needs, and is only too happy to drain you wallet and credit card so you CAN'T shop elsewhere later?!! So, where 15,000 discrete cars pass by the Napanoch Mall now, MAYBE 30,000 will pass by later, BUT IT'S the EXACT SAME PERSON'S CARS that went by now, only TWICE as often on average! It's NOT new or different persons!

To believe that anyone north of Accord, south of Wurtsboro, east of Pine Bush, or west of Greenfield Park will come to a Napanoch WM when a NEARER one exists in the opposite direction, PLUS far more choices than JUST ONE Wal-Mart to go to when one goes to Kingston, Middletown, Monticello, or Newburgh, is delusional. No, it's the SAME TRAFFIC that's already here, and WM won't give anyone a reason to shop in downtown Ellenville at all, and by the time one has exhausted oneself at the Napanoch WM, it's unlikely one will drag oneself over to the special plot of land where Wenig's used to be to spend more.

What evidence IS there that the town and village want to STOP it? On the contrary, the mayor of Ellenville IS THE ATTORNEY of the deal! Any other mayor would have jumped at the threat such an OUT OF VILLAGE business poses, but, in what amounts to a clear conflict of interest, the mayor ignores the evidence and burbles how a WM OUTSIDE the village is GOOD for the village! The village board, when it could have, took no steps even to express its concern or even check out the facts that would have given it concern.

As for the town board, when I first pleaded with them to have a moratorium on new construction to give them TIME to STUDY the issue and take prudent steps to PROTECT the town from potential harm, they shot me down as an obstructionist who might "scare" WM away, as if it were a nervous little schoolgirl rather than a voracious behemoth with platoons of lawyers and PR flaks in their employ. Over a year and a half ago I asked them to pass a simple six-month moratorium to give them the time to see what other communities have learned and what MINIMUM steps have been taken to allow for sound decisions; so, even without the moratorium, they have WASTED over 18 months learning NOTHING from the available evidence, and will either buy the PR hype the WM flaks bury them with, or will be unprepared to even ask the right questions.

Other towns wisely have created SIZE CAPS that prevent out-of-scale buildings that don't fit the local architecture or "rural" look. Other towns have limited franchise or chain stores to prevent an over-abundance of them destroying local businesses. Other towns have made large-scale developments pay for needed infrastructure. But Wawarsing has not done ANY of this. Indeed, ONE simple and prudent step, to FORCE any large developer to PAY FOR an INDEPENDENT ECONOMIC IMPACT STUDY, was also ignored, and this oversight will prove to be their biggest mistake, because we will then only have WM's glowing hype and NOT, as other towns have had, an OBJECTIVE balance sheet of the CONS as well as PROS of such a development.

WM is NOT better than "nothing" if it results in a NET LOSS of jobs, the destruction of numerous LOCALLY-OWNED and run businesses, whose owners are supporters of the community in many ways, and who provide EXISTING JOBS NOW, and if WM lowers the overall wage scale in the area, and then, as a monopoly, if it RAISES prices to whatever it wants to. AS I've said, an Ames-type store would serve much better, but when I approached Tso with a viable way to do it, he refused to talk with me!

As for prices and gas... if you think YOU spend a lot for gas, consider what it costs WM to maintain its 12,000-truck "warehouse on wheels" and to ship tons of crap from China! Just as the exponential increase in fuel costs are sinking the airlines, so it will force WM to raise prices to cover ALL those ships in the Pacific, and dozens of trucks coming in each day to Napanoch with stuff that will sit on shelves for months. And since persons are loathe to plan ahead, instead of taking ONE trip per month or two, or longer, to Kingston or Middletown, to gang up shopping errands (really, WHO needs socks and underwear as a "basic necessity" as if it were food? ONCE a year, or even less often, just buy enough to last for a few years!), persons will simply travel MORE often to WM and will thus likely not save on gas at all, but, like the delusion that WM SAVES them money (I posted studies that shows that THAT is a myth), they will delude themselves into believing that two trips to WM each week save them gas!

I will continue to urge the town to reject a WM; once it is an actual proposal before the planning board, I assume those who tentatively opposed it, but who didn't think it would happen (and it STILL makes no economic or demographic sense to build in NAPANOCH, given the small population base, particularly in these harder economic times) will return to action, but with more urgency.

The solution is to MAKE the local businesses better, first by supporting them so they aren't so strapped and desperate. The price we ALL pay for supposed "convenience" is hidden up front, but the evidence shows that it bites us all in the end. Communities faced with real threats from big box stores often put on a brave front and tried to compete with the big boxes, but couldn't outlast the deeper pockets. Those communities that succeeded in keeping out the big boxes did so in conjunction with creating and maintaining a vibrant local economy that was more interesting and more rewarding than surrendering to big box steamrolling. There are many examples out there to follow, in communities not much different in size and makeup than we are, but who had a strong nucleus of concerned citizens who were willing to take appropriate PROactive steps, backed by local officials who weren't going to get a commission from such a deal, but who READ the stories of other communities, and took steps to protect the town from the power of a giant juggernaut, and, finally, from a POPULACE that wasn't so ill-informed and selfish that they'd be willing to watch their community be destroyed so they could buy cheap plastic toys from China and save a few pennies on cheaper-made versions of brand items.

When Tso said he was told by Kaplan and WM to shut up and not talk to me or anyone else, and nothing was said for over a year about what was going on, people shrugged and assumed it was over. With no activity to resist or to give an alternative to, things went into hibernation. Several persons, including the publisher of the Journal, thought my "mercantile" idea had merit, and were willing to look more at it, but, with no sense of urgency, it too never got off the ground.

That Jeremy Blaber's blog kept praising EA, indeed, when he tried to list the Cons for EA, he "couldn't think of any," shows he didn't even read his own blog with the serious charges against EA, or link to the Journal forum that began to show questionable link after link that undermined any credibility he'd have as an ethical watchdog with professional qualifications (all Blaber had to do was look into his server to see the email address of "Lou S." or the many-since anonymous posts -- as Lou S. has since vanished! -- that are obviously EA praising himself still, to prove whether or not the charges are true), and I'm sorry that I didn't have time to personally contact more Dems, or have more local persons familiar with EA's history provide additional relevant concerns.

Why didn't the Wawarsing Dem Committee endorse EA? Why did the WFP and Conservatives refuse to endorse him? What kind of deals has he made with local Dems to get their support? Did he use the village's phones or PCs to campaign, contact others about it, or post anonymous emails in his behalf? How much time in "criss-crossing the county" was done on the village's dime? How much time in campaigning will be done while he neglects village business?

He even has the chutzpah to use the SAME PO box for his "Friends (HA!) of Auerbach" fundraising as for his "Lou Saphier" and other dummy real estate corporations!

The county Dems are going to regret this really bad choice, but not so much as EA himself, because now, at last, there's a reason for ALL the person's he's screwed, or lied to, or treated cavilierly, or betrayed, or used, or manipulated for his own ends, to come out of the woodwork and reveal the extent of his years of self-centered actions, enough to make even the village board have to question keeping him on as VM.

That many would rather live in fantasy AND denial rather than get THE FACTS is also not new, but still sad.

Really, what do you NEED on a daily basis that can't be gotten locally, or, if not available, can't be ordered by catalog or internet and delivered? Why do you believe that WM will save you money in the long run?

Can't identify yourself to us, can you? Can't say what you are saying to me mano-a-mano, eh? Rocks are what cowardly anonymous trolls such as you live under.

*I* didn't bring WM up! It was the subject of this article and editorial! Now, if YOU can refute what *I've* said about WM, rather than just suggest I "get off the Walmart kick already," why didn't you? Maybe it's because YOU CAN'T?

As I have said, an Ames-type store would serve just fine, without causing all the damage a WM would, so, your claim is a strawman. I have offered to make that happen, but Tso won't listen. That increase in fuel costs will eventually make its way INTO the prices at WM too, or do you think the cheap crap from China magically crosses the Pacific, and then magically gets into the stores without the 12,000-truck "warehose on wheels"? There ARE local sources of everyday needs, and there are ways around high fuel prices, but that involves THINKING and PLANNING and not being a zombie consumption addict.

And your next error is confusing shopping at a store that merely happens to be in the locality with "local shopping"! It's NOT a local shop when ALL the money put in there goes far, far away to Arkansas, and ALL economic decisions are MADE in Arkansas.

What WOULD be better is a LOCALLY-owned, financed, and run mercantile that would be of an Ames-store size and scope.

That's MISTER Jerk, to you, twit.

Good night; don't let the mosquitoes bite.

I AM so outta here.

Steve Krulick Email May 19, 2008 -- 1:51AM

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A few hours later I was driving down to JFK to catch a jet to Moscow. That was 20 days ago, nearly three weeks and three issues out since then. To meet the deadlines for the May 22 and June 5 issues I had to write and deliver BOTH columns before the 19th.

It's not usually good to advertise that one's house is going to be vacant for over two weeks, so one tries to make things seem as normal as possible, including posting columns regularly, and not mysteriously ceasing to post to this forum, hence my "announcement" that I was going to take a break voluntarily.

---

Then it's not for free Dave, Duh Duh Duh, Give it up already.

Email(none) Jun 3, 2008 -- 12:8AM

I didn't say how much my donation would be.... Duh back at ya-jerk.

Email(none) Jun 3, 2008 -- 2:1PM

Sorry, I did not realize you were also a thief, duh, you moron

Email(none) Jun 3, 2008 -- 5:34PM

---

What is a lap-band?

Does this have anything to do with a table dance?
Wouldn't it be nice to have a good place in the village to get some red blooded lap dances?

---

And perhaps my favorite:

Finally, a post from Steve Krulick that I am happy to see! Hopefully he will take a long break. Several decades would be nice.

Email(none) May 19, 2008 -- 3:57PM

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Hmmm, yeah that was some classic forum brilliance!

If all you see is blah blah etc., you may need to get your eyes checked, or learn to read and comprehend standard English; a course or two may help.

NAPANOCH - The Hudson Valley Volunteer Firemen's Association Convention will bring several community events, including a large parade, to Napanoch June 18-21.

Hosted by the Southern Ulster Public Safety Association - the Napanoch, Cragsmoor, Ellenville and Kerhonkson fire companies - the events are expected to draw members of 96 fire companies, 38 ladies' auxiliaries and 46 bands for a 4-hour parade on June 21, along with up to 15,000 spectators along the route.

The convention will be headquartered at the Nevele Hotel, and the streets of Napanoch will be the site of a Mardi Gras parade on June 20 and the Firemen's Dress Parade and fireworks the next day.

Chris DePew, chairman of the host committee, said 16 county organizations representing and area from the Tappan Zee Bridge to Lake Placid will participate. The public is invited to many of the events, including performances by an assortment of bands, the Mardi Gras parade and "Around the Town," a tour of every firehouse in the town of Wawarsing.

It seems that to reduce the 15b dollar budget crisis (affecting every state agency across the board, and most especially education (reduced class size, termination of temporary teachers, loss of extra curricular activities, fewer bi-lingual classes, etc.), our famous gov is suggesting two remedies, borrowing against the state lottery (future) and placing a 25% state tax on the porno industry., which some people believe is the largest industry in the state.

The porno people are responding that a tax will force actors and others in the industry to relocate to other states., thus affecting thousands of jobs, and of course revenue to the state ultimately.

Perhaps those who think my state is home to the most fruits and nuts, are not far wrong.

But one thing, we do sell alcohol in supermarkets..and have 60 plus casinos. I read that Fresh and Easy, the fast growing chain of small grocery stores statewide, is having problems getting customers..and has lost millions in start-up costs this past year. They are trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to compete with Wal-Mart, Target, Sears-K-Mart, etc.

But digression is what you seem to relish in, as if ANYONE to date has said, "Sure, Joel, we would LOVE to hear all about irrelevant California stuff, including how you spend your day driving around and shopping and having coffee!"

The budget crisis is more likely to be $20 billion, and this only confirms what I've said, that Joel's bubbling enthusiasm for California as a model and paradise to emulate is all wet (and not because it is about to fall into the Pacific, as Joel keeps claiming *I* claim; only SOME of California, one mudslide at a time, is under imminent threat of that!), and not worth having to be subjected to over and over again.

But, if anything, Joel, thanks for confirming that my analysis of the woes of your paradise is getting more and more accurate, and that you have still seem to have nothing relevant to contribute here.

To the larger debate about whether this large corporation will send much of it's net revenue out of the immediate area, I say, so what, so does other large corporations, with branches locally ( Rite Aide ) which, in fact, showed a loss for the fiscal year 2007, thanks to the acquisition of another large Eastern drug store chain of about 2,000 stores.

Why no controversy when corporatons LOSE money I ask? Why when stock holders see a decline in their portfolio value are there no shouts of dismay?

In fact, both small local businesses AND large chain stores with a national presence take risks when investing, it's the nature of private enterprise.

As George Will writes and says in interviews, aggressive capitalism has it's ups and downs, this current economic decline will pass, as have so many others. Let's be frank, our interest rates are low, our inflation is low, our GDP is increasing albeit slowly, AND our unemployment rate is only at 5.5%, and I stress only (much of that is due to high school and college graduates entering the job market, a temporary phenomenon).

Where I disagree strongly with S.K., and have done so since our postings, is his doom and gloom scenario for both my state, and the nation. His latest pessimistic argument is based on the spiraling out of control gasoline price., which still is a fraction of your average households monthly expense, albeit a strain on fanances.

I believe Joe Sixpack has the ability to withstand the advertising in these large chain stores, and has, and will buy selectively, based on need, and not impulse, as S.K., implies.

We are not about to fall into the ocean any time soon. Shopping malls are packed, the highways and freeways have not seen any major decline in traffic, cranes are seen all over the place for all the new construction (condo, townhouses, mixed-use housing). In fact, just around the corner from where I live, an 8 story mixed use housing is being completed now. Near there is a Blockbuster, which is rumored to be considering a merger with Circuit City (hardly a prognosis for bankrupty). The nearby Rite Aide just completed a major renovation, AND another Rite Aide was recently built further east. Local supermarkets are thriving, and the larger chains are investing millions to upgrade their stores.

I notice that older homes in the area are either being torn down completely, or refurbished with 2nd floors being built. Looks to me like a lot of optimism there.

Seems to this observer that there are people whose outlook on our economy is not what has been portrayed on this site.

I agree that the population pool in the area is limited.

But with hundreds of millions now being invested in that complex in Monticello (at the old now being torn down Concord Hotel), AND the continuing possibility of gambling coming to the area ( it only needs the approval of a new administration's Secretary of the Interior), there WILL be a sea change
in the area's tourism..bringing new life to the, yes, even the Napanoch Mall and local business. In my opinion, for what it's worth, there will be a ripple effect.

Unlike. S.K, I remember personally when Ellenville was a vibrant community, and believe, as one former business owner told me years ago, "It will come back". I agree, changed, but back.

Wal-Mart has made a profit, of several billions, unlike many, if not most corporations filing tax returns with the government and showing little, if any net income (subject to tax). (There are over 99,000 corporations nationwide), which paid about 13% of the total Federal income tax in 2005 (of a total of 2.6 trillion). In 2004, the percentage paid was also 13% of 2.4 trillion. This percentage is among the highest corporate rates in the world. (Some people believe our rates are the loweest, they are incorrect).

With regard to the oil companies, which some people deride, remember that 99% of the corporate profits are paid back to US, to the individual stockholders, into pension plans, or as dividends. We reap the benefits of higher prices forced on US by our OPEC friends and neighbors as well as the drawbacks.

There are people who are against our (US) opening up the Alaskan oil fields, or exploiting the vast quantities of oil found in oil shale. These environmentalists have prevailed in years. Hopefully, our next Congress will put an end to their influence once and for all. I am hopeful, just as I am hopeful for an economic rebound..with some display of intelligent foresight in the Catskills.

Sure, there's some money flowing outside of the local community, TOO much for my liking, as I've been complaining about for decades; so why compound it with letting in the BIGGEST blood-sucker of them all? By comparison, Rite-Aid, a REGIONAL chain, is small potatoes; WM, if it bleeds $1.5-2 million PER WEEK from the local economy, effectively sucks ALL the viable oxygen out of the room. See the difference?

Inflation LOW? What planet are YOU dialing in from? Oh, right, YOU use the "official statistics" that LEAVE GASOLINE, FUEL OIL, and FOOD out of the equation!!!! Let's see, oil has DOUBLED from one year ago!!! I'd call that 100% inflation, wouldn't you? Have you compared FOOD prices from one year ago? Some items have gone up as much as 1000%! Do we have to be carrying wheelbarrows of cash to buy bread before Joel calls it inflation?

As for unemployment figures, they're the biggest joke, except it's not funny. The official figures notoriously fudge the REAL situation, leaving out those who have dropped off the radar screen and given up LOOKING, and not taking into account that where ONE wage-earner used to be able to provide for ONE family, several persons comprising three or more jobs now have to equal that. But what can we expect from a Bush suckup?

You know, that tired knee-jerk "doom and gloom" mantra is really getting old, and as a mere hand-wave dismissal, fails to address the MANY, MANY stats and facts I've posted here or linked to to support my claim that things are GETTING WORSE AND NOT GOING TO TURN AROUND. No, Joel, THIS decline is DIFFERENT, and SHALL NOT PASS! It's the beginning of the Long Emergency, as we've PEAKED OIL PRODUCTION, and other resources are peaking, and, absent a MAJOR DIE OFF of a large percentage of our 7 billion souls here, we CAN'T continue to sustain that many persons on the food, water, and resources we HAVE, particularly as China and India want to have an AMERICAN LIFESTYLE, when that would require FIVE planets like ours to accomplish!

Hence, why I call Joel CLUELESS, because he is seemingly oblivious to these very obvious realities encroaching on California, New York, the US, and the WORLD.

Spin it as he wills, he refuses to see that the whole rickety economy is built on a false premise... that we can keep printing money that is not even MONEY but simply DEBT we owe to a consortium of PRIVATE banks ludicrously called "the Federal Reserve" which is neither FEDERAL nor a RESERVE!

That we keep offering this increasingly worthless paper as payment for importing cheap crap we can't even exchange REAL products for anymore, so that China and others OWN the increasing bulk of our "worth" and are afraid to let the "value" of it slip or THEY LOSE MORE. Hence, they prop up OUR delusion too, but more and more are SWITCHING to the Euro as the strong currency (perhaps TOO strong, but that's another story), or petrodollars NOT tied to US dollars.

The sub-prime crisis is only the tippy top of the iceberg; total commercial paper debt, in derivatives and inscrutable bundlings that NOBODY can trace anymore, is causing banks and insurers to fold left and right, and there's MORE to fall, including some BIG, BIG BOYZ on Wall Street, as HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS OF WORTHLESS DOLLAR PAPER become obviously the stuff that "dreams are made of" rather than actual physical wealth, and it all comes down with a thud that will make Black Friday of 1929 look like a tea party. Joel can't see it because it's outside his belief system, but any objective student of the news can see it coming.

Joel's naivety about Joe Sixpack's resistance to advertising and psychological manipulation is charming but incredulous. WM and others have spent untold billions since the 1920s learning and applying such details as what color paint or lights, or how high or wide an aisle should be to attract buyers; and to suggest that all they sell, and all we buy, are NECESSITIES (salad shooters? chia pets? cigarettes? cola? guffaw!) boggles the rational mind.

Let's see, I once again pointed out that California is NOT going to fall into the ocean, and Joel STILL has to point that out as if I had! Will you be HONEST for once, Joel?

Joel, all the supposed "growth" you are claiming is LIVING ON FUMES! It's the tail end of the fin d'siecle bubble, grinding down, just being inertial. These things were STARTED years ago, and are just winding down.

I'm reminded of a joke I heard in Russia, describing the chaotic period after the collapse of the USSR: "They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work." Sorry, Joel, but it's just the last gasp of those who still think the money they spend or take is worth what it USED TO BE WORTH, and who, like you, live in denial of what IS REALLY HAPPENING.

Much of it is a CON (as in CONfidence) game, trying to keep the "confidence" in the stability of the house of cards up even as the ground is shaking below. IF enough people THINK the market is still viable, they just might buy all that JUNK paper that the Boyz on Wall Street are trying to unload on the remaining suckers. IF companies TALK about growth, and INVEST money in projects (never mind that they don't make any real profit sense, just making it LOOK like things are going well), the stockholders won't flee to the hills screaming. Some suckers, like Joel, will still buy it, and there are enough flaks on CNBC and elsewhere to keep the hype breathless and glowing.

Optimism? No, Joel, denial and wishful thinking. But the foreclosure and default stats show the TRUE picture. The market drop in home prices of about 25% in his area and other bubble zones is unprecedented in decades and is just the beginning.

Ah, at last ONE point of agreement that can't be ignored: we DON'T have the demographics HERE to take the kind of HUGE impact ONE vampire store would have on the EXISTING economy. Which is why Joel's glowing, but increasingly silly, comments about LA-LA land are irrelevant to us, and why he should JUST GO AWAY.

Joel's comments are delusional. Just because fools ARE investing "hundreds of millions" into the Concord (IF it ever gets finished; I've pointed to DOZENS of major developers going belly up of late and leaving their investors and prospective owners holding bupkis.) doesn't make it WISE or even sane. What, persons haven't invested big bucks in big projects only to come up big losers? These projects were dreamed up YEARS ago, when all the world look rosy and growth was infinite and the free market was king. Now, they're just swallowing pepto-bismal and pasting on a big sweaty grin, and trying to clean up from the suckers before it comes crashing down.

Same with Stewart Airport being taken over by the Port Authority; they say it's "the future" and will invest big, but they are also on borrowed time, because it's just a year or two before the tumbleweeds start to blow across the empty tarmac as tourism as we've known it implodes.

So, Joel, as your premises and grasp of the REAL economy are flawed, so too your conclusions, and hence your opinion is worthless. There's NO future to area tourism, other than marauding hordes of starving suburbians from Westchester scrounging our water and veggies.

Gambling is not going to happen here, except our local denial-addicts "gambling" our future on schemes that HAVE no future.

Your "beliefs," based as they are on empty nothingness, are irrelevant. It's like believing in the Easter Bunny; you can believe in it all you want, even "really, really hard," but that doesn't make it so. Wow, a FORMER business owner told Joel YEARS ago that Ellenville is "coming back"! Take it to the bank, Joel, there's a good lad.

Oh, and did you miss the point I made that 13% of taxes from corporations is FEEBLE compared to when corporate taxes and tariffs once made up NEARLY ALL of our govt's tax revenues! But THEY managed to pull a fast one and put the bulk of the burden on WORKING PEOPLE, something the founders NEVER would have sanctioned. There was NO plan in the 18th and 19th century to EVER tax LABOR INCOME! INTEREST on investment, sure. Tariffs for bringing in cheap imports, sure. But the sweat of the common working stiff? NEVER! Whether the amendment allowing for that in 1913, and the Fed Reserve scam that same year, was ACTUALLY passed is still debated, but the results are here as if they were.

Joel, what are you smoking? Do you believe that what stockholders get is ACTUALLY ALL the profits divided equally? YOU of all people should know what a write-off is! And living in La-La land, home of porno films, you should also know that MOST Hollywood movies "NEVER" show a "profit" on paper, even if they take in hundreds of millions at the box office! It's "creative accounting," just as YOU have jiggered the figures here over and over!

OPEC? That's, what, less than 20% of our oil? MOST of our oil still comes from the US, Canada and Mexico! Get your silly facts straight before hyperventilating!

Most of the vaunted "vast quantity" of oil trapped in shale, or tar sands, COSTS MORE in oil and resources to extract that one GETS out from it! Clearly Joel is ignorant of all this, as he's still drinking the Koolaid. Next, he'll tout "clean coal" "clean nuclear" and "clean Alaskan drilling" as our salvation; none are clean, of course, but denial makes for silly claims.

Some, such as the previous poster, are pathetic bigots who should crawl back under the rock they came out from under, or else have the light of non-anonymity shine on them to reveal to their neighbors what dim minds and black hearts they have.

I wouldn't want such a person sullying any anti-Wal-Mart group *I* was associated with, and would denounce anyone using such verbal trash as a reason to reject a WM intrusion.

No, as a non-pilot, I wouldn't have dealt with you as Mike and Rod did. Grants, Jamesway, and Ames were a different scale of animal than WM. It's not the same thing, though each DID have some impact on downtown Ellenville's retailers, but hardly to the extent a WM would.

How about Ace Hardware. Prices are way up there.

Although, I can understand that the pocketbooks of Peter's Market and Shoprite will suffer, I look forward to more money being in my pocketbook. aS

Given the overwhelming available evidence (see www.W-E-R-D.org), I see those who blindly welcome a Wal-Mart as knee-jerk fantasts living in denial and wishful thinking. THEY are the "negative" ones, as they have surrendered locally-based self-reliance for easy and resigned handing over our economic destiny to a powerful and greedy outside force that has no interest in our community but to exploit it.

The SMART communities, DOZENS of them, having done their research, didn't figure out how to roll over and surrender to WM and learn to conform to life under WM's sway, but how to RESIST and OVERCOME WM and keep it OUT! Many have WON the right to control their own economic destiny. Hundreds that DIDN'T are now regretting their short-sighted cupidity, as the results, so similar from community to community, of shuttered stores and decimated downtowns, can't easily be undone.

Why try to find, if any, the few places where a specific combination of factors allowed communities to handle the assault of a WM, rather than learn from those who either regret their mistake or who found a way to keep WM out?

WM isn't about COMPETITION! There's no level playing field. It's about scorched earth annihilation of anyone who dares withstand the assault! Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!

You have to accept that for each TWO jobs in WM, an average of THREE existing retail jobs will be lost. Oh, and your snotty and unsupported claim that what you NOW find behind the local counter is "some snot nose uneducated high school dropout with 5 children who has an attitude because you interupted her phone conversation instead of waiting on you"... well WHO do you think is going to be working at the Wal-Mart? A cadre of Mr. Belvederes? LOL! NO! IT's THE SAME people who JUST LOST THEIR EXISTING JOBS, only now they may be getting LESS pay and fewer benefits, working more hours without pay, and with a turnover rate of 50% per year AVERAGE, and maybe 100% or more! Hell, it might wind up BEING YOU, as YOUR job may be in jeopardy in the long run!

Whats next, move the Town Court to the Village?

Just like their so-called "organic" creds (proven bogus and exaggerated), and "environmental" creds (undermined by their entire operation as a fuel-guzzling polluter), "worker" creds (lawsuits for racist, sexist, ageist, anti-labor practices), "pro-USA" creds (resulting in more US factory closings and shipping of US jobs overseas than anyone else), and "health benefits" creds (spin and fine print that belies the scope and pervasiveness of their accessibility to workers), this is just bribery to make them look good to otherwise skeptical communities. And it HASN'T HAPPENED YET! It's just hot air and more happy face PR.

But then, they also want to be your banker, and credit card, and gas station, and eventually be the ONLY STORE YOU HAVE LEFT for everything! Like Soviet Russia's GUM (Government Department Store)!

I listed several dozen businesses that would be directly affected, employing hundreds, and dozens more secondary businesses that so depend on the first tier, that they would take a major hit by the negative effects on the first tier.

I don't have time to keep educating your sorry butt. I suggest you do a search through the Journal's archives for my listings and explanations.

For the readers info:GUM was established in 1893 and underwent many era and rebirthes.The modern translation of GUM:The main General store.I wish all of you can see it-its really a beautiful place.

C at 3:22 is correct in her thinking.

When artists from Cragsmore came to Town Board meeting last year they did not support positive airport ideas.All they were concern is $10,000 for their projects.

Yes, GUM looks great, after a major overhaul, but the ordinary Russian won't be found shopping there, as it's way out of their price range; only rich tourists and the nouveau riche Russian oligarchs can be found there, and at the nearby underground mall outside the Kremlin, buying overpriced luxuries. In a sense, rampant capitalism and inflation has made GUM just as remote and useless for the ordinary Russian as ever it was decades ago! There are no lines, of course, because I didn't see anyone buying the chi-chi bling!

C made a silly blatant assertion; by you just blatantly asserting it's correct doesn't make it any more correct. Are YOU saying Ellenville is a cesspool? Are you saying that people want it to BE a cesspool? (I won't say STAY a cesspool, as that begs the question of the veracity of the first bogus premise). Care to support that? Need I repeat the list of businesses I alluded to in my refutation?

Your memory is selective, it would seem; you didn't "stand up" to the town board back when you and they agreed that I was an obstructionist to be shouted down and that any steps to protect the town (moratorium, size cap, economic impact study) were not needed, and might scare Wal-Mart away. No, when the town board AGREED with you, you were fine with them. And your pro-Wal-Mart petitions, had NOTHING to do with OUR PRO-moratorium petitions, but you managed to confuse the board that they did; that was a case of you having plenty of "luck" getting the board to side with you.

What may seem like "positive" airport ideas to you, might, rightly, seem like folly and a waste of time and resources to others. Just because YOU are sold on YOUR own ideas, doesn't mean it's "logical" or "obvious" to others. People have a right to hold their own independently-arrived-at opinions, and, as YOU didn't persuade them, perhaps it's not THEIR fault or their stupidity or illogic, but YOUR failure to make your case, or that YOUR case lacked logic or convincing evidence, or that it just didn't resonate on a gut level. Did you ever consider THAT possibility?

The artists could just as equally say that YOU did not support THEIR "positive" art ideas, and YOUR only concern was furthering YOUR questionable projects! See how the shoe can fit the other foot?

---

Anonymous and illogical one:

Your line is like "Love America or Leave it!" or other false dichotomy fallacies (like "If you don't like the slanderous lies that are printed about you in the forum, simply don't read them," as if THAT solves the problem that they ARE slanderous lies!) that put the absurd and onerous burden on the one who sees the bigger picture.

It's not whether *I* like WM or will or won't shop there. It's that *I* am a member of MY community and care about it, and WM presents a major threat to that community on so many levels that to sit by and passively watch the destruction of that community by letting a megacorp juggernaut steamroll in for ITS purposes rather than OUR welfare is not something I can abide.

Strike three: Your ignorance of WMs actual pricing policy. As I've posted and linked to, they use loss leaders in the aisles to make you THINK their prices are ALL low, when most shelf prices are ordinary or even higher than elsewhere, they use strange prices ($17.34) to make you think they've shaved the prices to the absolute penny possible, they offer CHEAPER-MADE versions of products in the same boxes, so that it's NOT the same thing you're buying. As said, when papers and TV stations do random basket comparisons, WM routinely comes out WORSE or no better than other stores. So you bought the hype and drank the Koolaid!

Strike four, the organic scam was big news last year; they FAKE their claims and so what they sold AS ORGANIC may not be so! Laws and ethics be damned!

Auerbach doesn't have a local store! Where have you been?

You make vague charges; I remember some of Ritchie's prices as being quite good... those that weren't I didn't buy. What's the problem?

But have you ever TALKED to a local store to get THEIR SIDE of the squeeze they are in? Do you have a clue how it all works, and that YOUR failure to support them by shopping elsewhere only makes it HARDER for them to survive, much less thrive?

Remember I was born there,live there and conduct presently business there.But of course my views as always more positive.

I was in Germany recently for a short visit and they have higher unemployment then in previous years.So?It is thier problem and they working on it.

Wawarsing lost over 1000 jobs in the last three years ,do you care to share how to fix it?

To everyone else:all your comments about local shopping are absolutely correct.You deserve better.Leadership failed in a last 20-30 years to have a back up plan as they kept placing all eggs in one basket.Not is the pay off time.

The cruel joke, I fear, is that the same "peak everything" that will further manifest itself here will take away this brief tantalizing period of consumerist fantasyland everyone there can SEE, even if they can't yet fully participate, probably within two or three years, with a resurgent Communist Party ready to say, "See, we told you so!" and the return of strongman repressiveness and privation.

There were no lines in the GUM, or Okhotny Ryad (the underground mall), or Eliseyevsky Gastronom (a mind-boggling Art Nouveau explosion of color and detail, like a mini-Harrads), because the prices were obscene and more than *I* would pay, much less the average Russian; a public school teacher, for instance, may make $600 per month... you can't buy Gucci and Cartier bling on that, and even a Coke and Big Mac is an extravagance (but MickeyD's bathrooms are FREE and spotless, unlike most public toilets, even if you don't buy anything, hence a tourists mecca!)

BTW, don't kid yourself; any objective reader can see as much "negativity" in your comments as from anyone! It's just where YOU place it!

I think that the whole concept of "jobs" as we know it will be obsolete in a few years. We will ALL have to work, but on personal and community survival first; all will have to do some agricultural work, and meaningful skills will come to the fore as a way of satisfying each person's contribution to the whole. But, meanwhile, in spite of the trend otherwise, as I said, I am working behind the scenes on a way to put a serious assembly or manufacturing entity into one of the closed factories at the edge of the village. This could be hundreds of jobs, in a green sector that might actually thrive in the coming economy, that is, until ALL our economic structure collapses. See, I'm an optimist too!

Oh, and there are other ideas, but who's listening to ME anyway?

A stereotype is a simplified andor standardized conception or image with specific meaning, often held in common by people about another group. A stereotype can be a conventional and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image, based on the assumption that there are attributes that members of the other group hold in common. Stereotypes may refuse to recognize a distinction between an individual and the group to which he or she belongs. Stereotypes may represent people entirely in terms of narrow assumptions about their biology, nationality, sexual orientation, disability, or any other number of categories. Sociologist Charles E. Hurst of the College of Wooster states that, One reason for stereotypes is the lack of personal, concrete familiarity that individuals have with persons in other racial or ethnic groups. Lack of familiarity encourages the lumping together of unknown individuals Different disciplines give different accounts of how stereotypes develop: Psychologists focus on how experience with groups, patterns of communication about the groups, and intergroup conflict. Sociologists focus on the relations among groups and position of different groups in a social structure. Psychoanalytically-oriented humanists have argued (e.g., Sander Gilman) that stereotypes, by definition, the representations are not accurate, but a projection of one to another.

Stereotypes are not accurate representations of groups, rather they arise as a means of explaining and justifying differences between groups, or system justification. Social status or group position determines stereotype content, not the actual personal characteristics of group members

The rest of the post, including such other silly absolutes as: "then the pork products disappear off the shelves and all (ALL?!!!) the kosher foood is brought in and you have to battle the long lines at the checkout because they are buying every (EVERY???) stich of housewares in the store" and the rest of this blatant assertion venom: "(only to be thrown outalong the road on there way back to the city). It also brings dinged and scratched car doors and filthy diapers in the parking lots and shopping carts."

Maybe you wouldn't mind identifying yourself, as you seem to think there's nothing wrong with your comments? After all, if you are NOT a pathetic bigot, what have you to fear?

BTW, do you understand how the presentation of a logical argument works? It's not up to others to DISPROVE YOUR BLATANT assertions ("Oh, so you don't believe in little green men from Mars? Can you PROVE they don't exist?"), otherwise known to rhetoricians as "proving a negative," but up to YOU to PROVE YOUR CLAIMS! The burden in a logical argument is ALWAYS that of the one making the claim, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more evidence is required. You have proven nothing... except that you are a pathetic bigot.

(I tend to agree with the cut and paste from the execrable bogus "Doctor Lumbard"; I only wish, as always, the bogus doctor would have footnoted the actual source of his cite so we can see how valid and authoritative it is, but what I read here conforms to my own understanding of the term and phenomenon. Oh, and it would be "Hasidim," pronounced "Ckhah-SEED-uhm" for the plural)

Then, in an interview with Jeff Kaplan, still no confirmation. How does anyone know that a site plan to be submitted in June or July will be for WM and not just some rank extension of the existing pile of crap thats there now.

Besides if by any chance a site plan does get submitted to the Town planning board for WM it could take 1-2 YEARS for approval. The Town planning board in the past has been less than friendly to applicants looking to develop in the Town. It's unfortunate that the arrogance of certain planning board members hinders development in the Town.

I am a developer who has pretty much written off the town for any projects due to the planning board and the road blocks that they throw up during the planning stages. I actually had Lonstein yell at me during a meeting. I was quite embarassing to me and my partners. Extermely unprofessional on the part of the planning board. I only want to put around 1.5 mil. into a residential project. I'm not going to mention where for fear of retribution if I do ever have another project for in the Town.

See how the planning board treated this poor family. I agree that the government shouldn't finance their paving project but make sure that before you order them to demolish income property that you've done your homework.

Another great job by the planning board... Yeah right....

Who said anything about Stewart's or McDonald's folding? So, it would appear you DIDN'T go back and check my previous listings, where neither of these appear (though they may both see a reduction in sales as a general result of the loss of overall disposable income). BTW, business is NOT about certain privileged behemoths using their power to ignore the rules and the laws and thus increase their power further. The founders would have been appalled, and said as much about unbridled corporate and financial powers, and set up the laws to prevent just such monsters as Wal-Mart from ever occurring, but the Santa Clara SCotUS case in the 19th century allowed corporations to become "persons" and then the floodgates of corporate corruption went full flower and have run things since.

Buying a t-shirt in WM at Napanoch is NOT 'buying locally' in the true sense, as the money doesn't STAY local, but flies overnight to Arkansas, never to be seen here again.

I'm trying to hold onto a community that isn't a boarded up shell in a neo-colonial thrall to one ginormous juggernaut that will determine our economic future for us as we sell our souls down the Rondout River for cheap Chinese socks.

Hasidim don't leave their dirty diapers in the Wal-Mart parking lot. You should know that only our shiksa mother's helpers ever touch a dirty diaper. Where they dump it is up to them.

And you should know that we don't buy the "kosher" food in Wal-Mart. With that certification it might as well be pork.

Wal-Mart is good. You locals don't know how good you have it. Seven dollars an hour is too good for you. You should embrace such a wonderful employer.

Persons will read what interests them; there's valuable stuff that's short or long, and useless crap that's short or long. One OTHER good reason to identify posts (again, whether it's with one's real name or a consistent user name, once one registers it with one's REAL NAME with the host, as most forums do), is that it BRANDS the post so you can tell up front if it's someone you want to take the time to read. The problem with anonymity is that I can't tell if it's 20 different persons or one very busy one.

Calling it drivel doesn't make it so, particularly if you haven't even managed to READ it all. And how is it self-serving? How do I gain anything from taking MY time to try to inform and educate the forum readers and try to get them to THINK and ACT as better citizens? Oh, a better community DOES serve my desires, sure, but it's COMMUNITY-SERVING rather than self-serving that is behind why I bother.

I don't make ONE PENNY on this or my columns. It doesn't seem to curry any favor with local officials. It clearly makes and stirs up enemies or antagonists. How any of THAT serves me, well, YOU tell me!

Why do you lump ME in as a politician (I'm not) and tar OTHER activists, as I see no other officials posting here (or activists that I would identify with)? I see nothing sinking, low or otherwise, by my postings; calling a pointed response a "whiny comeback" doesn't make it one. ONE lesson I learned from the EARLY Clintons is that you DON'T let an attack or slur go by without hitting back quick, firm, hard, and legit. Sorry if my style doesn't meet with YOUR purposes, which, may I assume, is that I should just roll over and let the mud stick?

Sigh, I have been touting the BEST alternative since December of 2006! A locally-owned-and-run mercantile, in conjunction or partnership with one of several successful small regional department store chains that have successfully REOPENED CLOSED AMES Stores around NYS that I have contacted and begun discussions with, while fixing up and re-organizing the Napanoch Mall to meet OUR needs, and landscaping and otherwise making it an attractive and welcoming community destination.

There are SO many models of what other communities have done to become more self-sufficient and local-oriented, but it's sooooo much easier to let Wal-Mart do it all! So very few really want to sit down and see HOW to put the pieces together, least of all Joe Tso who has said he's had enough and is not interested in working to make this happen; he can just take WM's money and split.

Ellenville is NOT a ghost town. I've SEEN ghost towns, literal and figurative, and we're in better shape than that. We're experiencing the same economic downturn as the rest of the country, but try going to Flint or Detroit to see the shell of a former city. And so many of the recently booming suburb communities are row after row of foreclosed or for-sale empty houses.

There ARE new businesses, like the kosher butcher, and the new diner where Burger King was, Spanky's, and the new restaurant where Lock 31 was. And the new mini-mall next to the recently refurbished Ellenville Beverage. And the silver Indian jewelry shop. These things don't open in a ghost town!

You clearly persist in seeing the glass empty and cracked, when it isn't.

I told you to go back in the archives where I list dozens of businesses representing hundreds of jobs worth holding onto, AND expanding. WE should put our FIRST effort into helping existing businesses that want to expand or diversify, as they have already proven their commitment to the area. Then we should look to helping those local persons with good ideas and skills who WANT to set up a new business. I'm willing to seek out persons from outside to move in, but that is the last option, and requires a special handling, to make sure the match is good, the person WANTS to commit to the area (unlike Hydro), and the business is a FUTURE-oriented one that will survive bad times.

To say there's NOTHING here is not true; I won't say you're LYING, but it's NOT TRUE (Same when you say NO ONE wants to make it better). And using such absolute terms only makes you sound not credible, as I can and have pointed to DOZENS of existing businesses, hundreds of jobs, dozens of local volunteer community organizations, art and culture, a great library and theater, a great hospital, airport, scenery, history and some of the world's purest water and good soil. And plenty of persons who put in TIME to make the community better. The only thing we sorely miss is a navigable river or functioning rail line.

Your not making a living anyway.

I have never denied that I don't suffer fools gladly, but I have been more willing then they to give THEM the time and consideration to answer THEIR questions or address THEIR points to an extent they rarely afford me.

Today isn't yesterday; things have changed just about everywhere, so to expect to see Ellenville as it was decades ago is folly. Some things, like most major smokestack industries, are unlikely to ever come back; even the head of the Ulster Development Corporation said "IBM isn't coming back," and didn't mean JUST IBM, but that TYPE of industry.

The irony is that having regional stores a half-hour away years ago HELPED DRIVE the nail into the coffin of many local stores, making it a self-fulfilling and self-perpetuating spiral. WE brought much of this on ourselves, because WE were too cheap or too oblivious to the CONSEQUENCES of our actions.

Walmart will not bring "parking lot crime" as someone had stated, nor will there be lights shining in windows from the vehicles. I grew up with Jamesway and Ames close to my home, and both were a great convenience and never a cause of grief or inconvenience.

But then there are all the hidden costs to YOU, your COMMUNITY, your NEIGHBORS' businesses and jobs, the ENVIRONMENT, the tax base and real estate market, the COUNTRY, and the WORLD. Those are discussed at the website too.

STOP thinking of yourself as a mere consumer, an addicted drone to THINGS and advertising, and start thinking as a CITIZEN responsible for more than feeding your appetite for THINGS. We're consuming ourselves to death!

Wal-Mart is NOT the solution to hunger or homelessness; if you look down far enough, you will see that WM is one of the contributing causes! How many jobs have left the US thanks to WM's policies? How many communities can't afford social services as WM has destroyed their tax base by decimating their downtown businesses?

There are better long-term solutions, and WM is not going to be around long enough to provide any meaningful help. I already pointed to the studies that showed that counties WITH a WM had more poverty AFTER than comparable counties that did NOT have a WM! NET LOSS of jobs and LOWERING the AVERAGE RETAIL wages are NOT good things! See the website.

You WON'T be able to go to Peters or Rite Aid IF THEY ARE NO LONGER THERE!!! Why do people seem to keep ignoring this?!!! It only takes a small decrease in sales to make a marginal business go under. Some, like Shoprite, might even cut their losses as soon as WM is ready to open, and close pre-emptively, putting 100-200 UNION workers out of jobs and reducing competition!

As a "consumer" oriented to "the bottom line" it will be hard to turn down the cheaper flowers, drugs, or food, because THAT is how WM gets you in and destroys the competition; after that, they can, as a monopoly, charge what they want, offer what they want, and not give a fig what YOU want.

Yes, WM's dirty secret is HOW MUCH CRIME they DO bring; watch "Wal-Mart: the High Cost of Low Prices" and the other documentaries at the website. Towns were told they might see four crimes per month but it became four crimes PER DAY (I posted this earlier, citing police officers; corroborating evidence is at the website). And Napanoch has no police department, so who will deal with that! But your blatant assertion to the contrary is based on WHAT? Oh, right YOUR MERE OPINION.

Get your cites straight... I didn't say the lights would be shining from the "vehicles," but from the HUGE BRIGHT STADIUM-style lights ABOVE the parking lot! They will be seen for miles in the sky, and will be visible from homes on Main Street and across 209. Ask the folks in Catskill and other towns what THAT is like!

If you think WM is like Jamesway or Ames, then you haven't read what I've been writing for over a year! It's a whole 'nother species, and I've said over and over that an Ames-type store would NOT be damaging as would an WM, which is what I've been pushing for as the best alternative, so your claim is irrelevant.

It's a GOOD CAUSE to prevent a BAD thing from happening to our community! But that doesn't preclude one from doing MANY things, so that's a false dichotomy, that doing one prevents doing the others.

What are YOU doing for "the poor, the homeless, the hungry"? A WM will only make things WORSE here, so preventing THAT is good for fighting the POVERTY it brings!

By "overboard" I guess you mean that I have such overwhelming evidence on my side that it's hard to refute? Yeah, just dismissing it that way beats actually addressing it!

As I said, we are consuming ourselves to death and setting ourselves up for having no means to dealing with the serious absence of fuel, food, and resources that we will shortly face. See my column next week that shows what the rest of the world is already dealing with, and what's just around the corner for us. Our priorities are whack, and the rest of the world would envy what we have but waste and mis-allocate. Soon, cheap new clothing from Asia won't be available and will be the LEAST of your concerns. The PRICE of food won't be the problem but the AVAILABILITY of ANY. We, as a community, are simply in denial about these coming problems.

Eating lunch in the village everyday; have you considered PREPARING a lunch he can bring? It's far less expensive to buy fresh healthy produce and make a nutritious lunch than to eat out each day, or didn't you know that? It's not up to YOUR son to single-handedly support the village restaurant business! Save that for appropriate occasions.

I repeat... that one ultimately saves money going to WM is a myth. Buying poor quality products that keep breaking and have to be replaced will cost MORE in the long run than buying QUALITY products that hold up. Yes, there ARE loss leader food items that suck you in to the store, but when you look at the WHOLE basket, WM is NOT usually a better buy. Again, GO TO THE WEBSITE and read the studies. THEY, and not YOUR beliefs, are the basis for determining who is right.

I spoke to someone from near Catskill and the lights from WM shine into their house. There ARE houses in Napanoch that will likely be affected; they are just NOW beginning to realize that may be a problem.

I haven't bought a car in years; on average, I keep a car for 14 years, but I just sold my 12-year-old Subaru because we realized we don't need to feed TWO similar wagons. I have only owned Subarus for reasons of safety and low-maintenance and all-wheel-drive. Collier doesn't sell the kind of car that meets my requirements so I buy from the closest Subaru dealer in Ulster County.

As I've said, my FIRST choice, all things being equal, is to go to Ellenville merchants, then Wawarsing, then Ulster, then NYS. One isn't a hypocrite because one can't get EVERYTHING one wants in the village. BTW, I do go to Colliers to get my cars inspected, and would throw them other business IF there was reason to. I am currently looking for an ALL-ELECTRIC car to replace the 1995 Subaru; do you know of anyone selling them in town? Didn't think so. Should there be an interest in them, *I* might even set up a dealership, or work WITH Collier's to sell them here, whaddya think of that?

It's a myth that WM hires the less fortunate and disabled, other than to EXPLOIT them and get PR value. Check out the lawsuits; a disabled woman sued WM for a quarter million dollars over WM's treatment of her, and there are plenty more examples:

Wal-Mart Settles Disability Discrimination Claim (North Country Gazette (N.Y.))
Retail giant Wal-Mart will pay $250,000 and furnish significant injunctive relief to settle a disability discrimination lawsuit filed by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC).

Same with elderly, handicapped, women, blacks, immigrants, and on and on. Don't swallow the Koolaid about how NICE WM is!

I may be in the minority re WM, but who knows; no poll has been taken here, and some of the smartest and most thoughtful and KNOWLEDGEABLE persons concerning business and WM's practices have told me they agree with me based on THE FACTS. Just being in the minority doesn't make me WRONG; indeed, it's the minority that is often ahead of the curve and proven right with time. The problem is that by the time that's the case, it's often too late.

Anyone who thinks a looming box is an improvement in aesthetics has a shock in store for themselves when it's a reality. And you should see the HUNDREDS of empty WMs around the nation for what a REAL eyesore can look like!

Of course things should be made to look nicer, and I've shown how. But that will be the LEAST of our concerns in a year or two when NO TRUCKS are making ANY deliveries to ANY stores and we will be wondering where ALL our next meals are coming from.

Perhaps you should separate FACTS from personal attacks, but what does my (claimed, not proven) "lack of emotion and also manners" have to do with this? I don't know YOU, so how can you make this judgment? I can assure you that among people I KNOW and hang with, nobody would make any such criticism. Riding the subway in NYC taught us how to be reserved and poker-faced with persons we don't yet know, and I guess that may still be part of my make-up, but I can't recall anyone I KNOW having accused me of lacking a great sense of humor, gregariousness, politeness, and tolerance.

Please stop confusing YOUR opinion with FACTS as presented by wide-ranging studies and actual history.

The Sheriff and State Police have no obligation NOR manpower to deal with FOUR crimes per day average, ranging from check fraud and shoplifting to mugging, rape, and murder. This will COST us extra, one of those hidden costs WM won't pay. Indeed, much of the crime in their lots is because (after you leave the store, they don't care that much about you) they save money on cameras and security outside even though they KNOW it can save lives. (See the movie I link to before you make these mere blatant assertions again!)

WMs ATTRACT unsavory characters because they know that many exiting customers are easy marks. It's IN the record, so go to the website and look it up. WM comes in, crime goes up, period.

I shop in ALL the local stores you mention, regularly, and more than those. Indeed, we (both my wife and I, as I'm a regular shopper) do ALL our essential everyday shopping in town; just because YOU don't see me means nothing. I don't answer to YOUR seeing me!

WM HAS set up a climate in the US that HAS led to the closing of many factories as well as many stores; why let them in to drive MORE nails in our community's coffin? EACH of the mentioned closings here were for their own, specific reasons, and may have had nothing to do with their being in Ellenville but some larger corporate or owner factor.

Negativity is in the head of the beholder; claiming what I say is "negative" is not a fact but simply YOUR opinion you're slinging at me. Of course, you seem to ignore that I've presented FACTS and not just opinions, and that my opinions are backed up with support evidence, whereas YOU just present opinions.

WM may or may not come, but the probability of my accuracy is based on HUNDREDS of actual examples around the country and the studies I've presented that show that. And if I'm right, how will we UNDO the damage?

But just keep putting your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalala... I can't hear you!" That's a great way to go through life, ill-informed and stubborn!

As I said, IF I opine, I SUPPORT those opinions with logic, history, authoritative substantiation, and studies. I don't say my opinions are facts; I, unlike many here, distinguish between the two. So it's hardly "useless spewing," something you seem to indulge in exclusively.

IF WM comes, and winds up costing this community businesses, jobs, real estate values, increased taxes for social services and infrastructure, pollution, noise, crime, etc. THAT will be fact, and more likely to happen as I've described, as it has happened LIKE THAT in hundreds of similar communities, your ignorance notwithstanding. But, hey, YOU will be able to buy cheap Chinese crap at 2 AM, whoopdeedoo, so who cares what damage is done, so long as YOUR petty selfish needs are met!

My time is MY business, to enjoy as *I* please; I just took a break to set up a composting unit. Next, I'm going to put new tires on my 10-speed. After that, I promised a friend I'd transfer an old LP of his to a CD. Then, I have some gluing to do, one or two emails to send, a button to mend... oh, my day has loads of things to keep me busy, but I still have time to swat at gnats like YOU!

I have limited time to post as I work full time and am raising children, one of which has multiple disabilities.

I certainly do not want to argue with you, but I become frustrated that you don't seem to understand where the "average Joe" is coming from.

I'm completely aware of where the average JOES (there's more than ONE stereotyped JOE!) are coming from. And mostly it seems to be from a limited "the world revolves around ME ME ME" attitude that doesn't look at the bigger picture and the unintended consequences of everyone looking out for "number 1" without understanding what's known as "The Tragedy of the Commons." Or as Winston Churchill said: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

No, I'm very aware of the short-sighted, limited-focus, "I want what I want and I want it NOW" attitude I'm up against. I'm trying to get persons to THINK outside their normal range, and see the bigger picture and the consequences of wanting something that comes with A PRICE they haven't considered or don't care about.

ONE lunch meeting, or me dropping off a form on the way to somewhere else (possibly in a hurry, or my car was running), is HARDLY the basis for drawing psychological conclusions "about my personality" you are not qualified to draw. I know that I ALWAYS respond to a hello, assuming I heard it, but I'm not usually considering dropping off a form the basis for beginning an intricate social engagement, and to use that as the basis for a diagnosis is of the level of "All Indians walk in single file; well, the ONE I saw did."

Again, I'm familiar with the arguments and reasons for persons THINKING they want a WM (actually, it's what a WM HAS, or they THINK it has, that they want, and that's why an AMES-type store is a better fit for our community; it offers basic NEEDS without the drawbacks to the community); I'm suggesting that YOU and others be OPEN-MINDED to the FACTS and ARGUMENTS I am presenting! I have considered the "arguments" presented FOR WM and they are mostly personal opinions based on limited awareness of what REALLY happens when WM comes to town.

I spoke to several CEOs of companies that HAD taken over closed Ames stores and reopened them as improved versions of the Ames stores (as they didn't have to answer to stupid corporate decisions), and got them interested in looking at working with an Ellenville-area mercantile group to do the same here. NO, they wouldn't BUY the property, as their pockets weren't as deep as WM, but the idea was that the community would come up with much of the money, and the workers, and these guys would use their expertise and contacts to set up the store and inventory and manage the hard parts (we had many ex-Ames and ex-Jamesway personnel here who could have come back where they left off).

I presented it to Tso, but HE wouldn't listen, because his attorney (the mayor of Ellenville) and WM told him NOT TO TALK TO ME OR ANYONE. And that's where it stalled.

NOBODY has the money to bid against WM! Tso wanted any community group to come up with millions of dollars almost overnight! NOT realistic.

Rico, there simply isn't the CAPITAL POOL in this area to support all the additional stores you mention, much less a WM, UNLESS you destroy almost every other existing retail business, and even then, if WM sucks $1.5 - 2 million per week from local shoppers, there simply isn't enough additional money to let the other mentioned stores meet their requirements to survive. There just isn't enough MONEY here to support all those overlapping businesses. Remember, WE are not a major demographic center, or an established retail destination.

In other words, you can't build a viable, sustainable local economy on lame cliches.

Experience and studies show crime WILL increase, property values will SINK, loss of existing retailers CAUSES tax base to shrink, WM will lower the overall average wage for EVERYONE by setting the lower standard. More cliches that don't work: sorry, but many hard-working and skilled persons bust their asses but couldn't compete with a juggernaut that doesn't let you play on a level field and were destroyed by WM.

WAL-MART STEPPING UP ITS EFFORTS TO SELL WINE

And affordable vintages for all

By Chris Sherman,
St. Petersberg Times Staff Writer

Published Monday, June 16, 2008 4:30 PM

Anyone desperately seeking Two-Buck Chuck should pour a glass of Super-Saver Sam.

That's Sam as in Walton, as in Wal-Mart, which now stocks a private label line of California wines called Oak Leaf at less than $3 a bottle.

Head to the back of the supercenter to the wall of bulk diapers, and look past the soft drinks. The section in the Pinellas Park store is small, one short aisle and an endcap, but packed with action, a riot of falling prices.

The popular Yellow Tail and Rex Goliath still cost more than a fiver, but most of the rest are $4.99. Even Australians are hung with instant refund tags that knock them down a dollar further.

Right on the money

Yet none go lower than Oak Leaf's cabernet sauvignon, merlot, chardonnay and a pinot grigio-chard blend, at $2.97. Elsewhere it has been spotted at $1.97 and rumored at $1.44.

Yet it tastes more than decent. In fact, Oak Leaf wines took gold and bronze at this year's wine competition at the Florida State Fair, and winemaker Mario Pulido has a good record with Turning Leaf at Gallo.

It doesn't look cheap, with its clean and classy label, no screw cap, real glass. The only clues to humble roots are that the source is broad "California" and no vintage is specified.

So? The numbers of interest are the little ones behind the dollar sign, and they're lower than wine buyers have seen in 20 years. Back then, Avia and other Eastern European wines came in at less $3, and Glen Ellen and Sutter Home pioneered the "$5 fighting varietal.''

Slowly California moved up and ceded lower prices to Chilean, Australian and then to a world of silly-label wines, from pickup trucks and guitars to a cartoon menagerie.

Tradition reclaimed

Enter Mr. Two Buck, a.k.a. Charles Shaw wines, in 2002. They were made by Bronco Wine Co., a giant in the Modesto vineyards, for Trader Joe's, California's funky gourmet grocer. Careful economies and unique deals made for a $2 price tag, a cheap-thrill cult and a new price category of "super value wines.''

Now comes Oak Leaf, to a much wider market. Where Trader Joe's is in two dozen states, Wal-Mart is global. For Oak Leaf, the producing partner is the Wine Group, a bland name for the second largest winemaker in California, owner of Concannon, Corbett Canyon, Fisheye, Big House, Almaden and Inglenook.

If that combination weren't enough, Oprah Winfrey gave Oak Leaf a splash in O magazine.

Extreme-value wines are perfectly timed for a slow economy, when shoppers trade down, and are a useful tactic for domestic wineries taking advantage of the weak dollar. It's not so perfect for anyone pushing $15 cabernets or even $8 chards, but bargain wines expand the market to the large group who buy no wine at all.

"They can try a bottle of wine now; $2 or $3 is not a big risk,'' says Harvey Posert, a Napa veteran who worked with Bronco on Two Buck Chuck. He says the gain in new drinkers benefits the business more than the losses of competitors.

IF WM arrives, other stores will LEAVE or CLOSE. Tso had two years to attract ANY stores for his proposed "destination mall" and NOBOBY took the opportunity, even, at first, WM! Because the demographics don't make sense! And will make even LESS sense if ONE big box store drops into the small pool economy.

WHY would ANY store move into an area where ONE big box sucks up nearly ALL the available capital? We're NOT a growing community that MIGHT be able to absorb several new stores; there is only a limited cash pool, and if WM pulls $1.5 million out of the local economy, WHERE is it to come from BUT the existing dollars already being spent?!! Hence, since the EXISTING retailers will be hit bad, why would anyone knowingly MOVE to set up here, when the disposable dollars will be even LESS than now?

Oh, and as shown repeatedly, WM and big box sprawl doesn't "create" employment, but DISPLACES existing retail jobs; either it hires management and seasoned workers from afar, or it winds up (WM having a 50% annual attrition rate average, some stores more, which is what they want), hiring from the THREE existing local retail jobs LOST for each TWO jobs WM "brought"!

So it creates UNEMPLOYMENT, MORE poverty, LOWERS the tax base, LOWERS real estate values, LOWERS the average wage, RAISES municipal service costs, INCREASES crime, REDUCES local civic involvement (ALL of these are demonstrated in the various studies linked to from the WERD website), decimates downtowns... in other words, it RUINS the economic situation, your ill-informed blatant assertion notwithstanding.