Lets see how well we did and what a great decision we made years ago.

1)Out vote the JM building so the FD cant have it but someone else can.

2)Waste money for architects and engineers to look at the site back then.

3)Waste money on impact studies for that site

3)Lose hundreds of thousands now due to the increase in value.

WOW looks to me taxpayers made the wrong decisions back then, why make them again.

Bottom line the FD needs a CENTRAL BUILDING and it has found one. Lets try not to have happen like whats happend in Pine Bush and Stone Ridge. Pine Bush has a beautiful building but the cost could choke an elephant well over 4 million dollars. Stone Ridge almost 3 million to house 4 trucks? Guessing here it would probably be over 4 million from the ground up. I would assume that from hearing the explanations this JM building here saves taxpayers alot of money. I dont understand how people dont comprehend that the final numbers cannot be drawn up as quickly as they need to be. They can figure per capita tax on the building but on the final scope of the work its almost impossible. Being a builder myself it takes months and months for architects to do drawings for a single family house nevermind a large commercial job. I have faith that the attorneys have done their jobs respectfully and have correctly advised the board also.

Perception often trumps reality, or IS reality, in how it leads to attitude and action.

Again, for several years, the talk and work has been about building a replacement building on the site of the current Kimble building, which is WHY they had to come to the village board, because the village owns the land. (Which is why the earlier post that the fire district is a "municipality" is incorrect; it is a DISTRICT, which has the ability to tax, but it is an "overlay" that exists in OTHER municipalities. And, if they build or buy and renovate IN the village, they will have to go before the village planning board, same as anyone else.) We were shown drawings of the buildings, and revisions, and ALL the talk was in that direction, for years.

SUDDENLY, with NO fanfare, the district drops that plan, looks to RUSH to buy another property, and RUSHES to have a vote, before the details and COMPARISONS can be laid out before the general public in a meaningful way.

LET those who think it's a good idea MAKE the case fully, and not just say it's been decided that it is so. I understand that NOT all the companies or members agree this IS the best way to go, so don't make it appear that it's unanimous there either. IF it is a good idea, and the numbers back it, and it is superior to any other option (including status quo), *I* and others would have no problem backing the decision.

Call the law office Wayne Lonstein and ask for the legal postings for the meeting. They have them on file. While your at it ask for a copy the contacts for the sale of the building and you will see that they state 60 days for the terms. Architects looked at the site and deemed the place suitable.

Steve at our members informational meeting the attitude was extremley positive. The only concern raised was company history and seperate meeting rooms. The commissioners stated from day one that as the district we are the ELLNVILLE FIRE DISTRICT NOT INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES. They also stated that each company would have their own say as to how to setup the interior of the builidng that was it on the concerns. Of course back at the stations people will start arguing but at the meeting nothing else was said so I dont know who told you differently.

The common sense reason to rush as you call it into this building is for reasons stated before and also on the radio. The district was given a time frame and they did what they could in the time they had.

Looking at the upfront and initial costs, and looking, say, 10 years down the road:

WHAT will the TOTAL final cost be to the community, for purchase, renovation, modification, architectural and engineering services?

WHAT would the Berme Rd plan (including what was already spent) cost in total?

WHAT would it cost to maintain the status quo?

These are not unreasonable requests, and nobody likes to be bullied and told, "We did the absolute minimum the law required, tough nuggies you didn't show up, we decided this anyway, and now you either vote NO and we all lose this marvelous opportunity, or you vote YES and we'll worry about the details and costs later."

Back in the 1st week of December I was given a heads up that this building was up for sale again.I contacted our attorney and asked to look into this and see what the price was. Once we found out we sat down and talked as a board and felt this would save money being that this was an existing structure which was up and running, had sewer and water and was in the village. The owners did state that there were 2 other parties interested but no one had come foward. This was a true statement which others still do not belive so we reacted first. The stipulation was that we would have to have a public meeting and also get a resolution for bond for the money needed. I then contacted our architects Peter Cirillo who has done numerous firehouses. He was here almost a week later to look over the building to make sure it was sound and still able to do what we wanted. He took information back with him and started to put figures together as to stress factors to see if the building could handle what we wanted not figures for the scope of the work. We did ask if there was a ballpark figure and until the drawings are done with all the information he will not give figures. This was the 1st step for trying to acquire the building first within the time factor. The day after we were told we could use this site we gave the owners signed contracts and then went to the newspapers for the public hearing.

This newspaper was contacted and our attorney was told that they would not publish because of the holiday schedule. This is where all the bickering started we did what we had the power to do as far as publishing. The Journal was our first choice because it was a local paper. Their holiday printing schedule was not our fault. We then went to the Times Herald Record for an ad. I happend to be between Christmas and New Year and as some claim it was done sneaky. Look at the calender and it will show we had no other time to do this and get referendum done by the end of the next month. Steve you of all people being a board member should understand the time it takes to achieve this.

As I told Stefan when intervied no one showed. I was not surprised because I have been a comissioner for 5 years and public meetigs dont pull alot of people off the couch. We have had them for truck expenditures equaling almost the same amounts and no one comes. Its always after the fact and its the same for village business.

I am a taxpayer in the village and am always concernd about taxes going up but when its warranted I except it if not I vote no as it is my perogative.

Membership has been behind this and like another fifefighter said the heritage issue has been a question. NO COMPANY WILL LOSE ITS HERITAGE. We are working on plans to have a hall of fame to show off all memorabilia these companies have acquired over the years. There is alot of mudslinging going on and I dont want the District to suffer from a few people who jump at the chance for scuttle. We all do a great job in saving lives and property and what ever comes from this vote I dont want the attitudes of the taxpayers or the firefighters to change.

While we are all under 1 roof we can operate alot better. ALL drivers will be trained to drive all apparatus. All members will be qualified to operate all equipment not just what is under your roof. All truck assignments go out in correct order so if there is a fire the 1st truck goes with water not a rescue vehicle. These are the things that take away from the efficientcy of the department. Inventory will be easily accounted for in one building which is an expensive proposition for taxpayers. The 50,000 in rent and heat now gets used on 1 building not three the up to code insulating values with help lower that figure alone. The use of this building if mass castrophy or if the elderly buildings flood like they have we wouldnt have to worry about school gyms being used and disrupt school for our children. It will be constructed to code for use as an emergency building.

Ask our neighboring towns like Napanoch how much of a positie it is to run out of one building.

Any modification to the building like adding a SECOND (not third) floor will have to be put before the planning board.

Sorry Mike, but you last post simply sidesteps the points I raised, and sets up some strawmen. NOBODY questions the sincerity, or saving lives and property, or wants to see heritage lost.

Few question having the companies under ONE roof, as this is the plan put to the board for years. (I still don't get the reference to RENT! Heat and utilities, OK, but RENT? Do the companies each OWN EACH of their respective buildings or not?) THAT is not the concern, but whether THIS particular building is the best way to go, and whether HOW this whole thing has been handled inspires confidence or raises questions as to whether the rush is fair to the public.

Again, perception. Rushed notices, holiday scheduling, claims of other buyers, limited public knowledge and chance to comment... all this MAY be innocent, but it SEEMS dicey to some, and YOU are the ones who must allay concerns.

And that takes more time or better answers. I don't recall anything of this speed at the village level... between setting SEVERAL public hearings, and having more publicity, it usually takes many weeks or even months before a vote is finally taken, and IF a public referendum is necessary, it takes even more public notification. No, the village procedure is far more transparent than this.

WHAT contract extended? I already explained that the VM HAD NO contract and the Board refused to give him one, so your claim is moot.

The purchase of the current new village hall was done over a period of many months, after YEARS of reviewing the options for building a new hall from scratch. Numbers were put forward based on bringing in architects and engineers and the estimates were pretty close to the mark. There is simply no comparison to this manner of doing things!

Picking a real estate agent doesn't require "hearings"; it's done at a PUBLIC board meeting, with the item ON the agenda, held at a regular place and time IN the village (not way out in Greenfield Park). When something like a local law needs hearings, they are posted for weeks, and there are usually more than one, and those with involved need to know are notified directly.

The bids for the Hall were all done publicly; I was there when at least two dozen contractors showed up, were given a FAT book of specs, given a tour of the building, and had any questions answered by the architects and engineers. The whole process was by the book and the lowest bids as submitted were accepted, until it turned out that one low bid was not qualified and the next lowest was accepted.

I have no idea what "hearings" would be necessary to hire anyone to do contract work NOT in the bid! And I know nothing about the specific allegations you make; take it up with the attorney general if you think there was a violation.

Signed contracts?!!! Please clarify. Are you sure you don't mean letters of intent, or the like?

How is bringing up valid questions "politicizing"? NOBODY is saying that ONE building isn't a good idea; I already brought this one up, and yet OF seems oblivious. No, the question is whether THIS building, at THIS price, with NO idea how much the REST of the project will cost, is THE RIGHT ONE building. How do we KNOW this will "save money over the long run" UNLESS we know the TOTAL costs and run a comparison spreadsheet for ALL the options.

As for the previous anonymous cranky poster: yes, of course I agree with others, when they say something worth agreeing with. One person's "bickering" is another's simply DOING HIS JOB, asking questions, insisting others back up their claims, suggesting alternatives. As General George S. Patton said, "If everyone is thinking the same thing, then someone isn't thinking." Clearly, you have NO understanding of the role of public official!

I RARELY "get my way." Gadflies and radicals rarely do. WE are used to being in the minority, because MOST people don't want to think outside the box or make waves or challenge authority. Well, that doesn't get a society very far. "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903)

The Berme road project was a projected building of 21,000 sq ft at commercial construction rates of 250.00 per sq ft it would bring us to 5.25 million dollars. Thats not all. We still had to do environmental studies and test borings. Those would add approximately 10,000 dollars. If the environmental stdies came back with problems in the soil we would now have had to build the building on a pier system which would now set us back upwards of 350,000 added all together 5.6 million dollars.

JM BUILDING. EXISTING COMMERCIAL PROPERTY RATES. Rates would be renovation rates. This building stands 18,458 sq ft. Having its parking and municipal water and sewer the rates would be in the 195.00 per foot range and possibly lower. Thats almost 3.6 million dollars for construction plus the 550,000 of the building brings it to just under 4.1 million. In my book thats a savings of 1.5 million dollars.

When we were originally given estimates for renovating the bank building and building a new hall, I think there was a concerted attempt to "prove" that a new building would be cheaper. Against all logic, the renovation came in at slightly higher than a new building, both in the $4 million plus range. I questioned all this, and finally prevailed, and the purchase and renovation came in at under $2 million, while a new building may have come in at $6-7 million or more.

Given this difference, for an 18-year-old building DESIGNED for office use, that needed NO structural changes, and only movement of non-load-bearing partitions, and moving around some wires and ducts, the use of an existing structure made sense and was a bargain.

Based on the above estimates, it is like the difference of buying a NEW CAR that precisely meets your needs for $20K or buying a old used car that needs major body work to make useful for your needs for $16K. In that case, one may be better off with the new one in the long run.

Building a modern firehouse precisely to spec (and choosing the high cost on the assumption you'll need piers is rigging the numbers! Perhaps another location, like Center and Market, or the land across from the library, or even outside the village, might preclude any such environmental concerns) for a little over $5 million gives you EXACTLY what you need, and over the lifetime may amortize better than taking an OLD structure and working around its shortcomings, including that it was NOT designed with a firehouse in mind, for a little over $4 million.

The original plan was to build a NEW building where the Kimble station now is (even if the Kimble building were vacated, THAT location is on village park land, and so wouldn't go back on the tax rolls, so only TWO would, in any case). That has been the discussion for several years at least, and presumed that TWO OF the older buildings could be sold and put back on the rolls. Who says otherwise?

You are side-stepping the issue with a strawman. NOBODY is suggesting we don't look at consolidating to ONE building; I've stated that repeatedly (why do you keep acting as if I haven't?). Your "argument," such as it is, is "Why is Steve saying grass isn't orange, when everyone knows it isn't purple?"

The argument is on 1) the price for the purchase and renovation, and how it compares to other options, 2) the WAY this has been done on how it leaves the vast majority of the taxpaying public OUT of the process (whether deliberate or not, the FACT is that the REALITY has been so).

It's not up to ME to say what's WRONG with the JM site; it's up to YOU to say what's RIGHT with it, and why it's BETTER than any other alternative.

Did you include the cost of an elevator to make a second story handicap accessible? That you can't use a roof as a floor without major work done? WHICH side of the building will be where the trucks go in and OUT? Yankee? Canal? The eastside parking lot? Is there turning radius? How will there be 40 parking spaces in any of the above scenarios?

Again, I await the answers to my previous questions regarding contracts etc.

No, OF, this isn't about ME, just because YOU want to make it so, and because you won't or can't deal with the points I raised. It's an old trick: if you can't argue the facts, create a diversion. ("If you cannot answer a man's argument do not panic. You can always call him names." - Oscar Wilde)

Don't talk about 10 years, explain the rush to do this with minimum public debate (THIS forum is the closest to a robust debate it will likely have!)

Don't tell me I am only NOW concerned with taxpayer dollars! I've been so since before I first ran for office, and IF you had attended any actual meetings where the subjects came up (like my proposal to print on both sides of paper to save taxpayer dollars AND the environment!), you'd know that.

And stop lying about the village hall project NOT having hearings! This project had gone on for years before I got on the board and took years while I WAS on it and ALWAYS before the public, at meetings, in the media, over and over, with plenty of time for anyone to look, ask, and stick their two cents in. This was done over a LONG time, NOT one month!

Don't bring up Wal-Mart as a red herring! Again, are you questioning MY right to question ANYTHING that concerns me AND the community? You know, in the Bill of Rights we encoded the precious right for someone to be FACED by his accuser! Well, YOU are just an anonymous sniper who won't let ME know who is making up crap about me! (As a proponent of Gandhian non-violence, it's not like I am going to HIT you! And I have no power to DO anything to you, as I hold no position of power! So why are YOU afraid?) Why do you hate our constitution and rights?

I AM asking questions, right here. But with few exceptions from Mike, most people seem unable to answer them, or choose not to, side-stepping and leveling personal attacks instead.

My experience is that one MUST question things BEFORE the costly mistakes are made; perhaps you forgot, but in 2001 I and other candidates for county legislature "stirred up a dust storm" about how expensive the county jail would be, that it WOULD wind up costing over $100 million and the opposition pooh-poohed us. Well, WE were RIGHT! Better to DEBATE it now than suffer the errors later!

Your take on why the Berme Road project didn't move ahead is outrageously off the mark! WE waited over and over for the fire district to get back to us with actual plans, numbers, and responses to legitimate questions. The playground has nothing to do with it; a request for a community center was rejected early on and had nothing to do with any delays.

As one who had concerns about the Berme Rd location for various reasons, up until my LAST meeting as a trustee, the fire district was STILL talking about going there! There was NO hint of any other plan! Then, one month later, a small ad in the Record that barely anyone saw, is talking about a whole new plan, with an informational meeting practically nobody knew about already having been the whole of the process, and then a vote with no financial numbers to act on is called for at a remote location! Please don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining!

We sadly don't need to look far to see why his kind of vigilance is necessary. The UC jail disaster will hurt this region for years and years to come, may end a few careers and possibly even result with criminal charges placed against some political figures.

Steve's (and my) concerns are merely that (1) we not rush into a quagmire of ballooning renovations costs and (2) that the public get a fair and realistic chance to review the projects before voting; after all, it'll be them footing the bill for years to come.

This $50K, is that the total annual cost, or is it just for "rent" of the truckbays and heat? WHO pays WHOM? Does the fire district (WE taxpayers) pay this to each company, or does each company pay it to a third-party landlord? If it goes to the fire companies, presumably to pay for their own expenses, how would having one building address those needs?

Now, for some math. IF the annual cost to rent is only $50K, and the projected cost of a new or remodeled building is between $4-$5 million, that represents 80-100 years annualized to pay for the building at THAT annual rate, before interest! Either that, or pay MORE each year, which may represent an INCREASE for taxpayers. (Oh, I guess you can deduct whatever the Pioneer and Scoresby buildings can sell for... IF there are any buyers!)

The parking is not an issue at all. There are almost 20 just in front of the building there is also parking to the right of the entrance and along the grassy area by the river. There is also parking to the rear of the structure with no interference at all. I cant understand how people just jump to conclusions without even knowing the facts. This place has been measured for our purposes and it works in every way. Steve we have proposed an elevator in this building also and handicap accessible. Just in case anyone wants to know we have also put sprinklers in which are not there now. The trucks will exit onto canal street just as the parking lot exits now.

I can't speak for the village losing prints or the attorney's delay; as a "mushroom" myself, I was kept in the dark and covered with manure about many things the VM would rather we were not aware of. This is the first I'm hearing of this; your mistake was depending on the VM and not going to someone on the board!

"Trust US!"

Sorry, THAT is what we were told about the county jail.

Do you think the VILLAGE could have come to the taxpayers to vote on a referendum without having a detailed plan and an exact amount of money based on all that, including plenty of public input? (BTW, by going the route we did, and NOT coming up with an expensive project, we did NOT need to have a referendum!)

I have read all of the comments in this post. Some for and some against the purchase of the JM building. One thing briefly mentioned was the professionals the fire district has utilized, Peter Cirillo and associates. I know Peter as well. The majority of projects he has designed have been successful ventures. He has no side bar interests. His job is to make his clients (The Ellenville Fire District) satisfied. As far as cost goes it's really simple. $250 per square foot for new and around $190 to renovate an existing building. Do the math yourself.... It's going to be expensive. Afterall it is a fire department that runs 400 calls per year. They definitly deserve to have the benefits of a well constructed (real) firehouse. Has anyone seen Pioneer lately. Its looking pretty shabby.

Maybe some sort of cost analysis shoud be presented to the public to show the offset in cost of construction (new or renovated) vs. the $48k per year the District currently pays for rent that could be used towards the mortgage or bond. Just to clarify, I believe the firehouses are privately owned and rent out portions of their garages to the fire districts to house the firetrucks.

Of course there are concerns with the location of the proposed building. Anywhere you put a firehouse would cause concerns. But as far as locations go there are few and far between. The location seems to be a good one. In reality anywhere you go between 8am and 9am, 230pm and 330pm your going to have to contend with school buses. I trust that the personnel driving the fire apparatus is well traind and knows how to react when approaching school buses.

As far as the Planning Board. I don't necessarily believe they would have to appear before the board. They may not be subjected to those regulations as a tax based entity. Did the new Village Hall go before the Planning Board?? I don't think so. I would request your attorney look into the requirement to appear before the planning board. A building permit would be required by State Law but I'm not so sure about local planning board. Has the building inspector been utilized or consulted?

A couple things to consider;
1. Curb cuts onto Route 52. If the fire district is considering moving the curb cuts around DOT approval could take 6 months or longer.
2. Handicap Accessibility. An elevator would be required if the public meeting space is going to be on the second floor. Thats a law (ADA Americans with Disibilty Act)
3. Peter Cirillo, although is a good architect, does not have the engineering knowledge that it takes to physically construct a fire house from an existing building. If this is not done right it will drive the final cost up substantially.
4. Impact from the flood control area; Has proper research been done in researching the potential impact in the event of a 100yr flooding event. Keep in mind that we've had two in the last six years.
5. Special construction standars for firehouses. As Mike stated it is required to be utilized as a place of refuge in the event of an emergency that requires evacuations. Once again, engineers need to be involved, not just architects.

I could go on. Anyway, I once again commend Mike for putting it out there. I wish we had more commissioners like him in years past. It's truly a thankless position that takes time and effort. Arent there 5 commissioners? Where and who are the other ones?? In any event they dont seem to be involved to the point that Mike has been.

I'm not blaming YOU for the jail or hall or anything, only for the WAY this was done, and is being done, and used the jail as an example of how things CAN go wrong when a few persons think they know it all, and leave the public (or even many of the legislators) out of it until it's too late. And the jail took LONGER to set up and get underway. AND the firms contracted to do the jail were ALSO "experienced firms" with long track records and now we see what "trusting" them led to. It's a WARNING and object lesson, that's all.

Steve Krulick Email Jan 15, 2008 -- 0:1AM

Me thinks it's about time the town were leveled, maybe by those snow removers or giant bulldozers, and started all over again from scratch.

Empty malls, plants waving good-by, pizza stores closing, Burger King but a taster's memory, two main streets which resemble the old ghost towns in the far West, night life going dark, controversy over when crews should be removing snow in front of a restaurant which caters to the wealty out of towners only, AND now all this over 3 fire companies which might use one location, leaving behind empty buildings (including a former movie theatre), which, should be included in the above recommendation.

This ISN'T MY blog! But as I am one of the few who identifies himself, I guess it SEEMS as if I am saying more than others. Hey, why don't YOU anonymous snipers identify YOURSELVES? Then we can see if YOU are speaking from a biased position and what credibility you deserve.

The antique truck issue is irrelevant to this. Calling it the "Scoresby" Antique Truck doesn't make it so; the last I was told it WAS donated to the village. How would YOU know whether appropriate notice was given? But information is being FOILed on this, the Journal is pursuing this, and, if necessary, the AG or DA will be brought in. But until then, stop making accusations and innuendos!

Mike didn't volunteer this information on his own! If *I* and a few others hadn't been insistent on asking and asking UNTIL we got answers (and there are STILL some questions I've asked that HAVEN'T been answered) I doubt he would have been "busting his butt" to get this information here. THIS is the only forum so far that I know of where these matters are coming public; tonight's Noonday Club meeting, where Mike M was to be guest speaker was canceled, in part because, the notice said, Mike "couldn't make it." Again, this may be a coincidence, but you add one suspect action on another and another, and can you blame the public for being suspicious of motives and actions?

Each answer seems to have been like pulling teeth. Little by little we are getting to the nub of things, like what the total project MAY cost, whether the architect who made the estimates is QUALIFIED to estimate the engineering work on a RENOVATION rather than a new building. But we still wait to hear WHO pays rent to whom, and what it's for, and why these costs won't continue, IN ADDITION to principal and interest for a new or renovated building. Or how 40 cars would fit at JM. Each fact has been forthcoming ONLY after specific questions were asked, as if from a reluctant witness. YOU are sounding very defensive, and that hardly sells it.

No, it's NOT a lie in MY eyes! Where did *I* say that? Oh, right, NOWHERE. THAT is YOUR mindreading and baseless accusations ON YOUR PART! "Anything to create dust that's what it's all about"? ALL about?!! Where do YOU get off claiming YOU KNOW "all about" MY motives? YOU DON'T KNOW at all!!! Damn, I'm asking legitimate questions, questions that shouldn't NEED to be asked! The fire district should be PROACTIVE and selling this to the public by having MORE meetings, MORE articles, MORE publicity.

It's not up to those who are hesitant to vote YES to explain themselves! It's up to those who WANT us to vote YES to make a case for it! Am I required to explain to a salesman why I DON'T want to buy his product? It's not up to me to do that; it's up to HIM to convince ME!

I only brought up the planning board because the village board was accused of NOT doing things that aren't ITS responsibility, as if IT WERE the planning board.

I reported what I heard at the village board meeting; if they WERE miffed, take it up with them.

"Sway" people? I'm just asking questions and YOU seem to be getting very defensive over it. A fair chance? What's fair about asking people to vote on something about which they have little or no knowledge? Or about traveling to Greenfield Park to vote? Give the PUBLIC a fair chance to be properly informed before voting and not make it so hard TO vote!

Absolutist language -- "contradict ANYTHING" -- besides impugning my motives and reasons, as if you have a window to my mind, undermines your claims. You claim to know what I will "say next"! Well, you lose! Slinging straw isn't a legitimate debate tactic.

"You are trying to make the FD look like thiefs,cheats ans sneaks." Uh, no. Care to show MY WORDS to that effect? YOU are trying to twist my words and are making accusations about ME! YOU have gone public with false accusations, about ME! Why don't YOU back up your claim with some actual evidence? Unlike YOU, I have proof that you are engaging in mischaracterization, right here, but YOU have nothing!

I'm sure Mike IS doing his best to ANSWER the questions, but only AFTER they get ASKED! He doesn't seem to be volunteering much info on his own; indeed, would ANY of this info have been forthcoming if *I* and a few others hadn't been ASKING? From here, it looks like we've been prying with a crowbar to get ANY answers.

Mike is probably new to this; I'm sure he's learning the hard way what it means to be in the hot seat on behalf of the organization he represents. There's plenty to learn about public relations, politics, and perception! But if he wants to "run for office" he had better get used to it, and start to master it.

Demolishing a building after paying $550K for it (add at least $100K to pull it down, more if asbestos abatement is involved) and starting on flat ground may be the least smart way to go. At that rate, why not get a cheap plot of empty ground big enough to build on? But I agree that trying to retrofit a building NOT designed for this purpose (unlike the village hall; an office building was converted there into... an OFFICE building!) may be the second least smart way to go.

email (2): Gad, you are one negative whiner! Why don't you just leave and find someplace perfect? Oh, right, THERE IS NO SUCH PERFECT PLACE! All you can do, it seems, is spout baseless cliches and unsubstantiated claims, and cast it all in the most negative light, as if NOTHING good were happening or possible. Oh, and what does your sad rant have to do with THIS serious and critical problem? If you really think an entire town (or do you mean the village? People who don't know the difference between the two shouldn't be spouting off about them!) COULD be leveled and rebuilt from scratch, you are one or two cards short of a full deck. And if you really think our streets look like a Western ghost town, then you probably haven't seen one; and I can point to quite a few real towns that look way worse than Ellenville. Again, just leave, and take that dark cloud with you!

COME ONE COME ALL!!!!
WE WANT TO SPEND TAXPAYER MONEY TO BUY A BUILDING FOR 550,000.00 (renovations will be in the MILLIONS)
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON COST TO FOLLOW WHEN YOU RECEIVE YOUR TAX BILL!!!

Steve you hit the nail on the head. I am not a real estate agent and this is the first time I have ever taken something like this on. I can also guarantee you that it will probably be the last.

To the other posters thanks for the praise but I am no hero at all and no I will not run for any political office. I have learned alot in the past month. The verbal abuse and accusations alone are not worth the return payment for my volunteering services. We wonder why the Village is the way it is. We have so many Monday morning quarterbacks and people who hide behind keyboards and others who would slander their own mothers to get a rise out of someone. Its a disgrace.

To the other poster I do own a house in the village and have lived here 15 years with my family and I do care about my taxes. I choose to vote for what I care is right I dont need anyone elses help or need to blog for help.

Taxpayer wanting answers Dont finger me out to be the bad guy here because you are going in the wrong direction you dont know what you are talking about. We dont hold secrete meetimgs and when we hold meeting their is an attorney there just like the village having an executive session its all legit. Memebers only meetings are just that members only and its not you business to know whats being discussed there unless you are a member. We have applications if you would like one. Bring your concerns Wednesday and hopefully we can give you the right answers you need

I'm sure that you HAVE learned much about how this aspect of public life works. As someone who has had to deal with plenty of unfocused anger and grumpiness, I can tell you that one has to develop a thick skin at times. One has to distinguish between sincere, informed criticism (or even just the fact that others MAY be right and YOU may be wrong, because none of us has all the answers and we must always keep that possibility in mind), and the peckish carping of disgruntled losers whose thoughts (what few if any they actually generate on their own) constantly marinate in their own bile. That IS why so many qualified and talented individuals stay away from public service, or soon leave it, because who wants to invest one's time and energy only to have unappreciative snipers throwing undeserved tomatoes at one?!!

I assure you my reason for being here is NOT to beat up on you or anyone else, certainly not anyone who, like you, has volunteered to serve your community. We need MORE sincere people like you to do those tasks that NO money could buy, and without which we really HAVE NO community. But public service DOES come with a price; even discounting the loud-mouth clowns and bitter whiners, one HAS TO accept that public decisions involve public input and having to deal with legitimate questions and concerns, particularly from those who have been through the gauntlet and have some experience with how things can go wrong, and how it's better to question and poke BEFORE decisions become irreversible.

Yes, there are times when decisions MUST be made quickly, and that is when having tested and trusted persons in place is essential, and why WE must pick our representatives with the same care an employer picks a general manager, or a board picks a CEO, and not on such silly criteria as their ability to spout pleasant sound-bites or smile for the cameras.

But for the most part, TIME to review, deliberate, gather input, weigh options, and then SELL the benefits to a skeptical and "cheapskate" public is part of the process, and to short-circuit that, or even APPEAR to be doing so, only creates suspicion, anger, and resentment, and many a good idea has been sunk for reasons having less to do with the actual merit of the proposal than how poorly the whole thing was handled. I say this as one who has seen it happen too often, and only as an observation.

I care about this community, and I would have the same concerns and approach towards any similar proposal and request for large spending. It's always up to the person MAKING the proposal to SELL it, by marshaling all the necessary facts and arguments, ideally BEFORE questions arise, but when they do, to handle the questions in an honest and non-defensive manner. I understand that you may not have all the answers at hand, and it takes time to get them, and you have clearly tried to do what you can in a hurry, but this rush and pressure is rarely good for the process. Please understand how WE feel when told that things MUST be done with a gun to our heads regarding rushing to a vote without adequate information or time to digest and weigh it.

Has anyone taken a look at the County Recorder' Office to determine whether the Napanoch Mall has been sold? I would appreciate knowing the current status. What about the owner...any word from him to date on the possibility of a sale..or renting to a Target, Costco, K-Mart, Wal-Mart (perish the thought), Tesco, etc?

I was frankly disappointed when learning that the Sec. of the Interior stopped any thought of a casino in Monticello, giving some excuse about relocating tribe members AND the distance from the site to the actual tribe location.

Certainly, having 5-7 million people drive to the casino (s), would have reinvigorated the entire mid-Hudson Valley area and helped create cottage industries. This cannot be refuted.
My own more immediate concern is a proposition which would increase the slots in four indian casinos to 7,500 each and (according to the gov.), bring in billions over a 10 year period to the state.

Whether as some have suggested there would be an increase in crime, etc., is problematic. Traffic should be a concern, but could have been handled.

We know that Ellenville has seen a significant decrease in population over the last 50 years. It's evident just by taking a stroll downtown on any weekend (or week) day..and most especially during the summer months, where the now defunct Norbury Theatre was lively (Ecksteins, The Shamrock, Sams and The Sugar Bowl) were well within walking distance of the theatre). I know, I saw dozens of good movies there, and afterwards enjoyed personally the great pizza or egg creams nearby. The rage at that time were the (2) pinball machines for .05.

If anyone doubts me, just ask any old timer who was around at the time.

I admit to not being able to recognize anyone in the recent edition of the EWAA magazine, which I received in the mail a few days ago. In fact, all the people shown were seen often at the above places.

It's all very, very sad.

No, bankruptcy is not really an answer..but something constuctive has to be done, and soon, based on projections of more businesses folding.

I am convinced that there are worse solutions than allowing or encouraging a Wal-Mart type operation to enter the immediate area.

What is pertinent seems to be plowing snow drifts, causing an inconvenience to patrons of a small, local restaurant (one of the few remaining), making the (big) decision about whether to centralize 3 fire engine companies to one location, globalization and effect of Chinese trade on the local economy, and why pizza restauants change hands so often?

I suppose Bella that you have some sort of absolute claim (right) to speak your mind on this website, to the exclusion of others.

BTW, Bella, at university pigeon English, I was taught to get to the point, and quickly, or lose credibility.

Sorry, in this country we have what is known as freedom of speech. 350,000 plus fought and died for that privilege
just 60 years go and to give that freedom to others.

It distinguishes US from others. And thank G-d for that and REAL private enterprise. Bless America., empty, underutilized malls and all.

BTW, a close friend just came back from a visit to the Emerates, and was impressed by the gambling casinos in the Arab countries and all the potential for tourists.

More money going abroad, and should I add, to Conn., Penn., Reno, Las Vegas and California (lets not forget California with it's 38m people, and still growing.

Oh for those snow drifts...sleet and freezing rain..and controversy over when to, and when not to plow. LOL

But Bella, I suppose you could not imagine what it was like to go into the "Sugar Bowl", after a nice movie, shown at the Norbury...air conditioned and all, with great sodas, hamburgers cooked on the grill, and oh that hot chocolate on a cold winter's night. Brings tears to my eyes thinking about it.

If I recall, wasn't the site now being considered for the 3 fire engine companies, once an A P? My how things have changed.

Have you actually READ what I wrote? If so, I don't see how you could perpetuate the strawman argument that I ignored the 10-15 years spent on finding a place to locate.

I clearly agreed that that was the case, and particularly mentioned that for as long as I was on the Board the whole of the topic, going on and on, was about seeking the village's assent to using the Berme Road property. I don't see how any literate person can infer that I am suggesting that the district is rushing into THAT -- that is, looking for ONE joint location SOMEWHERE.

No, as I've said repeatedly, the concern is the PERCEPTION that the purchase of the JM outlet store building -- and ONLY that ONE building -- came out of the blue, without adequate information for the public to make an informed decision on, and that all the aspects of this seem rushed, defensive, and designed to minimize public input or involvement: a small legal ad in the Record few people would see; no apparent attempt to get this into the local weekly as a press release (or wait one week for an ad); ONE informational meeting that was poorly advertised or not at all, hence had NO members of the public present; a vote to be held far from the greatest percent of the population; a defensive attitude where questions only seem to be answered AFTER they are asked, like pulling teeth.

But ONLY about THIS ONE purchase, and NOT about the whole long process. So, since your premise and claim is off-base, your whole strawman argument becomes moot. Your "disagreement" isn't with ME, but only with your own fabricated strawman argument you put in my mouth. Nobody said you were rushing into "something"; I think we can all agree the whole PROCESS has been going on and on interminably. Again, this "rushing" ONLY refers to THIS JM outlet purchase, and I don't see how I could have made myself clearer on this point.

The argument about HAVING to have the meetings at the Greenfield Park station because it's the only one the district owns is specious. You could have held the meetings at the town hall or village hall for free, and there are other locations, like the community room at the library, that provide free meeting space for public meetings. OR, you could have held them on a rotating basis at the other three firehouses, and waived the rent, as it just comes out of one pocket and goes into another anyway. (I'm still puzzled by the argument that "we" -- the "district," i.e. the taxpayers -- pay "rent" to the companies who own their buildings, to "rent" the truck bays in those buildings; since the money goes to the companies to pay their expenses, how will that need change even when there's a new building, other than that we will have to now pay huge principal and interest amounts in addition? Can someone finally clarify this?)

Now, if you want to hold your REGULAR board meetings in Greenfield Park, that's up to you. But when you hold an INFORMATIONAL meeting to INFORM the public, or want to hold a vote to get the maximum public participation (assuming you do), you pick a CONVENIENT location for the bulk of the district, which happens to be IN the village. There are many seniors and others who either can't or won't travel at night by car to a remote location! All your justifications and explanations won't allay those criticisms and suspicions.

WHY would I have to have had gone to commissioner meetings? I had no particular concerns THEN; I assumed the district was proceeding with their Berme Road plans, and could simply wait until they came BACK to the Village Board when they had a reason to. At THOSE meetings I certainly asked questions and made comments when I had any! (How could I have had THESE particular concerns about THIS building, or THIS process, until IT happened, AFTER I left the Board?!!!) Or doesn't Gary remember (I don't think he was at all the meetings I was at)? My concerns only came up about THIS JM outlet purchase AFTER I was told about it third hand. Was there any official meeting since then? This forum seemed as good a place as any for THE PUBLIC to ask questions.

BTW, if Gary had any questions of ME, why couldn't he call ME? Why didn't HE go proactive, or get Mike to, to SELL this proposal to the public, instead of waiting until it got to this point of public upset, and then only like pulling teeth to get any answers?

The village DOES get to vote; that doesn't preclude the rest of the district getting to vote too, but none of that addresses the concerns I raised about HOW this whole thing was handled. Sure, they all can vote... IF they can get to the Greenfield Park station during ONE three-hour window at night! Many can't or won't!

Of course the vote is only about the purchase; but the PURCHASE implies some unknown amount (never mentioned until *I* asked about it), of over $3.4 million, and maybe more, to renovate. It's "minor" details like THAT that weren't brought up or told to the public voluntarily!

I spoke with a long-time member of one of the companies yesterday, and clearly not every fireman agrees with the "official" position, nor denies that my questions are valid.

As for the anonymous twit who posted after:

It seems the district officials were only "responsive" when pushed up against the wall of public concern or outrage! Hardly something to praise! As I said, it's like pulling teeth to get answers on this, and I still have unanswered questions awaiting to be replied to here!

I'm NOT a "naysayer" (Again, go find where I've TOLD other people to vote "nay"!), but someone asking legitimate questions and trying to prevent a costly mistake from possible happening, due to a rushed process and lack of public input.

What does the village buying a "news" (sic) building (actually, it was a "used" and NOT new building!), or it or the town doing anything else have to do with THIS particular question at hand? Why must you sling this irrelevant straw? Tu quoque fallacies don't address what *I* have been asking.

Finally, why must you LIE about my words?

Why don't you provide ANY proof of my making Firemen the "target of (my) attacks"? Just quote me doing that, or remain revealed as a cowardly, anonymous liar. Indeed, here's something I did say, which you seem to ignore: "I assure you my reason for being here is NOT to beat up on you or anyone else, certainly not anyone who, like you, has volunteered to serve your community. We need MORE sincere people like you to do those tasks that NO money could buy, and without which we really HAVE NO community." Does that sound like an attack on firemen, who volunteer for free to help us?

As far as pulling teeth for answers I read back at posts where mike tells you straight out that the architect doesnt want to guess and until you finally cut off his airway they get an estimate and then its still not good enough. You didnt back them into a wall all you did was get yourself and little entorage to bully a man who did nothing wrong but try to help with what he could . You now have your numbers what else do you request. Save some questions for wednesday or maybe your afraid of the dark. possibly the fd could rent buses to bus people in serve coffee and danish but then again it would cost money.

The rent issue is not brain science. The companies own the property.You want to house your trucks their, pay rent or you dont house them there. Just like renting a garage or storage from any one. Nothing is free. The district pays them and the money comes from the budget the distict submits. When the district trucks are finally moved into the JM building the almost 50,000 in rent stops and goes to paying the bond. The Scoresby,Pioneer and Kimble houses begin to pay taxes immediately after the trucks are taken out. They are no longer considered firehouses so no exemption. 3 buildings from the fd back on the rolls not 2 like you keep arguing. These companies will not survive!!!!!

2) I'm not "badgering" the FD or those who run it; I'm asking QUESTIONS, trying to get INFORMATION, in order to make an INFORMED decision on how to VOTE! Can't persons READ my actual words?

3) So, a few dozen persons in Spring Glen have the same weight as the 4,000 persons or more in or near Ellenville? Look, whether that is true or not, or even if they flipped a coin to pick a place, the PERCEPTION is that a REMOTE place was picked to MINIMIZE public access by the LARGEST bloc of voters. The proof will be in the turnout for both the info meeting and the vote; my guess is the Ellenville turnout will be smaller than if it had been IN Ellenville, and seniors will be under-represented.

4) No, I was NOT "one of them."

5) Nobody asked you "not to use it"! Use it all you want for routine purposes, but what is to preclude you from holding an important informational meeting where most of the people ARE? Have TWO meetings, or THREE! Again, it's the PERCEPTION that is informing persons' attitudes.

6) You are ON the "defensive" because you are acting DEFENSIVE rather than being forthcoming and proactive! You are seeing enemies and attackers where there are ONLY legitimate questioners! You are, it seems, so blinded by YOUR rage, that you can't seem to read or comprehend clearly what *I* and others are ACTUALLY saying!

7) I know nothing about "all the complaints... coming out of 1 firehose"! *I* am not in ANY firehouse! I gather many of the concerns are also just from ordinary taxpayers who want to KNOW what we are being asked to pay for! Clearly, there is some internecine bickering here between companies; normally, I wouldn't care what you all think of each other, but this doesn't bode well for a joint district trying to cooperate and live under one roof!

8) Would Mike have gotten ANY estimate if we didn't ask? I don't recall ANY info coming forth UNTIL someone like ME asked for it specifically! Then, someone questioned the validity of an estimate from someone who DESIGNS from scratch rather than an engineer who specializes in renovations!

9) I don't see Mike getting as defensive as YOU, and HE hasn't used the kind of nasty accusatory language you anonymous cowards have; and *I* haven't said anything personal or negative to or about Mike, OR bullied him, have I? You are fabricating this stuff in your minds, because it is NOT down in black and white from ME!

10) The "numbers" I have are only estimates, and their validity has been brought into question. 99% of the public doesn't have these numbers at all, and what provision was made to GIVE it to them before they vote? They will see ONLY the purchase price, with NO IDEA on the ballot that the final cost could be seven or more times as high! The village could never get away with THAT on a vote! The final cost of a bond has to be to the penny!

11) Don't patronize me. I have heard from more than one person that they don't have a car to get to Greenfield Park, and that THEY will not travel at night. All this could have been avoided has SOMEONE thought this through and arranged to hold the vote IN Ellenville. Or even in Greenfield Park AND Ellenville; hell, elections are held in multiple places nearly all the time!

12) Why doesn't the district BUY the fire houses instead of "renting" truck space? Who determines how much the rent IS? The companies? The district? Where does the rent go? IF it's to pay company expenses, won't owning a single building STILL not cover expenses? It sure looks like this is a left pocket pays the right pocket arrangement!

13) Another new fact emerges! So, once the district moves the trucks OUT of ANY building, that building ceases to be tax exempt? AND, one may suppose, NO rental money FROM the trucks is coming in, so the company expense money will come from, what, BBQs and such only? AND assuming the buildings don't get sold for months or years in this fading real estate market, they will be even MORE encumbered to keep paying taxes! From where will THAT money come, on top of what the taxpayers will pay on the principal and interest of the NEW (or renovated) building? Did anyone think of THAT?

And if Kimble is on village-owned land, does the village pay rent on ITS own land? I guess Kimble would be asked only for rent and utilities as always?

THIS opens a whole NEW problem! Maybe the least expensive option is to keep things as they are!

14) This is the FIRST someone has gone on record (anonymously, of course) that there ARE opposing members! So it's NOT all unanimity and all-for-one! There IS dissension AMONG the firemen! Well, based on the silly claims made here, any questioning of the wisdom of this move is an ATTACK on the brave firemen! So, are firemen attacking firemen, or not?!!! Or, maybe, just like ME, they are simply exercising THEIR right to QUESTION the decision of a FEW?

And IF the district CAN pull any trucks out anytime, WHAT is to prevent ONE company from getting the control of the board and PUNISHING another company in this manner? It seems the public is not very well informed about MUCH of what goes on behind those "members only" meetings!

NEXT Post:

1) I am asking QUESTIONS; *I* am the one SEEKING facts here, not presenting them! IF you question MY motives YOU'd better have some FACTS, or at least some LOGICAL arguments to accuse me of ANYTHING!

2) Who says I'm taking things "so far and contru(ing) them"? Be specific! I am ASKING QUESTIONS and making comments based on what I can know or surmise UNTIL someone presents some superior facts!

3) Since YOU are just another anonymous cipher, I don't have to take YOUR questioning of MY civic pride! Of your accusations, I repeat what Wilde said: "If you cannot answer a man's argument do not panic. You can always call him names."

4) You want a list of how I've served MY community? Go to my website! Or ask around. There's more than one way to serve, and being a firefighter, as noble and necessary as that is, isn't the only way; why impugn ANYONE who isn't one? And how does THIS silly line of "reasoning" of yours address my comments and questions? Oh, right IT DOESN'T! It's simply a diversion and red herring.

5) Again, you seem to be continuing the bogus argument that I am somehow ATTACKING the firefighters! Well, as I've said over and over, I'm not, and even as I have been accused of ignoring what was repeated over and over by Mike, I seem to be the MOST ignored person, as I keep getting charged with attacking the volunteers and the district, even as I keep denying it, stating, in fact, just the opposite, and repeat and repeat that there IS NO ATTACK by me because I ASK QUESTIONS! Why can't you angry and deluded people FOCUS?

6) I already spoke to the matter of why I had no reason to attend commissioners meetings; didn't you read it? HOW would I have gotten the FACTS there about a proposed purchase that didn't even come to light until very recently (probably since the last regular meeting), and when the figures for the estimate of renovation just came THE OTHER DAY, and only because *I* asked for it HERE?!!!

7) I didn't call Gary a "strawman"! Gad, don't you even know what a strawman argument IS? I called his -- and many other lame excuses for a logical argument posted here -- "strawmen" because THAT is what they are, by definition. Behold, and learn, before you go ranting about something you are ignorant of: "The Straw Man Fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of it. Caricature or fabricate your opponent's argument, then knock down the straw man you created. A straw man argument is a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted; it is a pale imitation of the real argument actually being made but close enough to fool some credulous people." See, now don't YOU feel silly?

8) I AM doing research by ASKING QUESTIONS here! But, as I've said, and any rational person can observe, it's been like pulling teeth! For every dragged out answer, I have to deal with at least a half-dozen personal attacks by anonymous cowards who either haven't READ what I wrote, or who don't understand it, or who just make up crap, or go off on wild and irrelevant tangents of their own creation!

9) My "beef," among ALL those I already mentioned, is that the REAL TOTAL cost is still unknown, and seems to be MORE than what we are paying now, for a questionable "solution" that may not be the best. What little tax may come EVEN IF the current houses go on the rolls, may pale in comparison to the annual taxes to pay of the principal and interest of the new or renovated station.

Next deluded poster:

I didn't call Gary a strawman! But YOUR argument IS a strawman argument, because it too postulates claims I never made, and knocks down arguments I never argued! See the definition above. What you've also engaged in is red herrings, ad hominems, and somewhat an Emily Latella "jack story." Look it all up; I'm not here to fill the gaps in your education.

Next vicious poster:

But even if you ARE correct, the decision to buy a building at some unknown cost of $4 million plus and upwards (at least $6 million plus with interest) should not be based on real estate aesthetics. And it would take that property off the tax rolls; also, if your premise is correct about the current business climate, what will happen with the huge empty Pioneer hall, Scoursby building, and Kimble?

Oh, they might go back on the tax rolls, but where will the fire companies that own those buildings get the money to pay those taxes, and without trucks there, there will be no rent coming in, and they may stay unsold for who knows how long, financially breaking the three companies. Did you consider that?

I don't think the issue of children from the annex, school, or elsewhere is necessarily a problem, but I think the visibility of traffic coming from the east on Canal and crossing the bridge is one. If ALL traffic to get from the bays has to be the highly-pitched curb cut near the bridge, that's a bottleneck and axle-bender waiting to happen. I still wonder how all the 40 proposed cars can park and still leave turning radius allowance for seven bays of trucks all trying to get out at the same time.

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